Playing "Double or nothing turbo"

    • DiSpirit
      DiSpirit
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.06.2009 Posts: 40
      Hey guys,

      So, after reading Anssi's recommendation (for someone else :D ) in another topic about playing "Double or nothing" I tried it, and, didn't really enjoyed it as the possible reward seemed small for the time spend (most likely it's just an illusion, but I feel like time spent on normal SnG was more worthwhile), anyhow, I then tried "Double or nothing" turbo ant wooohooo, it was so much fun :D Oh yeah, and I'm still in micro limits on PS :)

      So, the most important part for me - I enjoy them very much (even grinding for couple of hours non stop is fun so far). The problem is, I'm not really sure how to play them. I used Basic/Bronze strategies as for normal SnG, but just tweaked to fit my style (and as I imagine be more suitable for this type of game). But I'm still a :f_grin: in Poker so there's a good chance that in the long run my tactics just won't work and I go broke :)

      So my couple of questions would be:

      -Do tactics on SnG section are effective on "Double or nothing turbos" ? If not, how should they be tweaked ?
      -All in all, does playing Double or Nothing turbo has a future ? I mean I love poker, and would like to earn some money out of it, and if normal SnG's or MTT's have better chance of becoming profitable I'd gladly go back to them

      Thank you and sorry if topic like that already exists
  • 15 replies
    • EdgarAronov
      EdgarAronov
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.07.2009 Posts: 142
      Well, i think u can make a lot of money of it multitabeling. I multitable 6 SNG and i always finish half of then in 4 place, so i guess double or nothing would be very good for me BUT, theres no DON in full tilt :f_cry: :f_cry: :f_cry:
      In that game u just have to be very tight, dont need to some big stack to survive the late phrase, if get a very good hand and triple your stack - sit away from the table. thats my opinion and how i used do to it
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Originally posted by DiSpirit
      Hey guys,

      So, after reading Anssi's recommendation (for someone else :D ) in another topic about playing "Double or nothing" I tried it, and, didn't really enjoyed it as the possible reward seemed small for the time spend (most likely it's just an illusion, but I feel like time spent on normal SnG was more worthwhile), anyhow, I then tried "Double or nothing" turbo ant wooohooo, it was so much fun :D Oh yeah, and I'm still in micro limits on PS :)

      So, the most important part for me - I enjoy them very much (even grinding for couple of hours non stop is fun so far). The problem is, I'm not really sure how to play them. I used Basic/Bronze strategies as for normal SnG, but just tweaked to fit my style (and as I imagine be more suitable for this type of game). But I'm still a :f_grin: in Poker so there's a good chance that in the long run my tactics just won't work and I go broke :)

      So my couple of questions would be:

      -Do tactics on SnG section are effective on "Double or nothing turbos" ? If not, how should they be tweaked ?
      -All in all, does playing Double or Nothing turbo has a future ? I mean I love poker, and would like to earn some money out of it, and if normal SnG's or MTT's have better chance of becoming profitable I'd gladly go back to them

      Thank you and sorry if topic like that already exists
      I play alot of these at the $1.10 limit on stars and they are very tight. Most people have worked out how to play them so making consistent profit isn't all that easy. Early game you should only be raising AA, KK & QQ. You can play lower pairs for set value but don't pay more than a min raise to see the blind. The math behind it all says you should only risk your stack if you have an 82% chance of winning the hand (Or something like that, def more than 80%) so in theory you shouldn't even be all in preflop with AA. I have to say though, If i've got AA or KK i'll happily throw my chips in preflop.

      Once you get to push/fold which will be quickly you need to try an steal the blinds from tight players more than look for an all-in confrontation. Keep an eye on shorties at the table, if you are the 2nd or 3rd biggest stack just play tight as hell and hope some of the others run in to each other.

      These are very good for multi-tabling because most of the time you're folding and you'll only ever have easy decisions post flop - The most I can play is 20 tables although I recently did a lot of damage to my BR when I did that and didn't play very well for 3 sets :(
    • hoffee
      hoffee
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.11.2008 Posts: 89
      played some DON. have got about $800 profit on em.. $20 BI.

      The don is acctually, just about playing very very tight, untill the blinds increase to 50/100-75/150(depends on how the other one playes).. on this level I just use to raise, ridicilous small bets like.. 208 - 308.. with any two cards and they wild folk vs you(who's image are tight) 80% of the time.. than I usually do this abit aggro until I've reached a nice stack. Than go tight again...
    • Anssi
      Anssi
      Black
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 2,173
      Actually it's 70%~something, anyways KK is not good enough against good player's range. You'll go broke with AA preflop unless there is very good reason not to.

      I like using minraising in DoN's too, but only on the 50/100 blind level. It's the only time when stacks are good for it. I also don't like to do it with any two, because the big blind will call quite often. It's better to have something. Generally it's very bad thing if you have raised and opponent pushes, because then you either have to fold or make a crying call because you get too good odds.

      Your biggest edge in Double or Nothings is to let your opponents make the mistakes.

      I recommend 4 things to everyone:

      - read book Kill Everyone, it's very good for all sit and goes.
      - download TableNinja, it is very useful software for Pokerstars multitabling.
      - have a HUD software like Pokertracker or Elephant, it will give you huge advantage when you for example see which regs only play AA/KK and which one opens a lot larger range (like suited connectors, pocket pairs, any two from button etc)
      - Download Sit&Go Wizard
    • DiSpirit
      DiSpirit
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.06.2009 Posts: 40
      Originally posted by Wurble
      Originally posted by DiSpirit
      Hey guys,

      So, after reading Anssi's recommendation (for someone else :D ) in another topic about playing "Double or nothing" I tried it, and, didn't really enjoyed it as the possible reward seemed small for the time spend (most likely it's just an illusion, but I feel like time spent on normal SnG was more worthwhile), anyhow, I then tried "Double or nothing" turbo ant wooohooo, it was so much fun :D Oh yeah, and I'm still in micro limits on PS :)

      So, the most important part for me - I enjoy them very much (even grinding for couple of hours non stop is fun so far). The problem is, I'm not really sure how to play them. I used Basic/Bronze strategies as for normal SnG, but just tweaked to fit my style (and as I imagine be more suitable for this type of game). But I'm still a :f_grin: in Poker so there's a good chance that in the long run my tactics just won't work and I go broke :)

      So my couple of questions would be:

      -Do tactics on SnG section are effective on "Double or nothing turbos" ? If not, how should they be tweaked ?
      -All in all, does playing Double or Nothing turbo has a future ? I mean I love poker, and would like to earn some money out of it, and if normal SnG's or MTT's have better chance of becoming profitable I'd gladly go back to them

      Thank you and sorry if topic like that already exists
      I play alot of these at the $1.10 limit on stars and they are very tight. Most people have worked out how to play them so making consistent profit isn't all that easy. Early game you should only be raising AA, KK & QQ. You can play lower pairs for set value but don't pay more than a min raise to see the blind. The math behind it all says you should only risk your stack if you have an 82% chance of winning the hand (Or something like that, def more than 80%) so in theory you shouldn't even be all in preflop with AA. I have to say though, If i've got AA or KK i'll happily throw my chips in preflop.

      Once you get to push/fold which will be quickly you need to try an steal the blinds from tight players more than look for an all-in confrontation. Keep an eye on shorties at the table, if you are the 2nd or 3rd biggest stack just play tight as hell and hope some of the others run in to each other.

      These are very good for multi-tabling because most of the time you're folding and you'll only ever have easy decisions post flop - The most I can play is 20 tables although I recently did a lot of damage to my BR when I did that and didn't play very well for 3 sets :(
      Thanks everyone for responses,

      I'm not very good at playing low pockets so at this game I almost always just fold anything below JJ (speaking about early game). But I like going with AK/AQ preflop because I found that it is easy to scare people with continuation bet (as you mentioned players in this type tend to be very tight).

      Anyway, you mean playing 20 tables at once ? Heh, that's impresive :) As I always play 4 at once (can't fit more into screen). I'm just wondering, with so many games how do you watch for situation and screen players ? Or do you just play the same system without reads on players ?
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Originally posted by DiSpirit


      Anyway, you mean playing 20 tables at once ? Heh, that's impresive :) As I always play 4 at once (can't fit more into screen). I'm just wondering, with so many games how do you watch for situation and screen players ? Or do you just play the same system without reads on players ?
      lol I used to play 4 as well because I was only happy with my tables tiled. As soon as you are comfortable stacking your tables on top of eachother 20 tables isn't all that difficult. You won't get any reads though which is why Anssi I think said you should try using a hud - This will help you make quick decisions against opponents.

      Anssi also said that the percentage chance of winning should be 70% to shove all in preflop - I'm pretty certain this isn't correct although I'm happy to be proven wrong if someone can show me the maths :)
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Oh, and low pockets are some of the easiest hands to play really - Certainly get you in less trouble than AK/AQ because you call nothing more than a min-raise early game and if you don't hit a set on the flop then you just check/fold. If you do hit your set and someone else has hit top pair or something there's a good chance you'll be taking their stack :)

      Late game push/fold most pocket pairs are an easy shove if you're not the big stack.

      As you said, most players will fold to a c-bet but be careful... Although a lot of players are tight as hell there are also usually 3 or more major fish at the table who will chase cards and often hit. If you c-bet make sure you fold the turn if you're called and raised - This was my biggest leak, betting the turn hoping to push them off the hand and then finding out they'd landed something on the turn or river :(
    • DiSpirit
      DiSpirit
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.06.2009 Posts: 40
      Originally posted by Wurble
      Oh, and low pockets are some of the easiest hands to play really - Certainly get you in less trouble than AK/AQ because you call nothing more than a min-raise early game and if you don't hit a set on the flop then you just check/fold. If you do hit your set and someone else has hit top pair or something there's a good chance you'll be taking their stack :)

      Late game push/fold most pocket pairs are an easy shove if you're not the big stack.

      As you said, most players will fold to a c-bet but be careful... Although a lot of players are tight as hell there are also usually 3 or more major fish at the table who will chase cards and often hit. If you c-bet make sure you fold the turn if you're called and raised - This was my biggest leak, betting the turn hoping to push them off the hand and then finding out they'd landed something on the turn or river :(
      Thank you, I'll try to implement low pockets into my game and see how it works out. Anyway, what's the chance to hit a set on the flop ?
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Originally posted by DiSpirit
      Anyway, what's the chance to hit a set on the flop ?
      I'm not 100% sure, I think it's 1 in 15 times but this could be way off - I read that somewhere but someone on here will definitely come up with the answer. Also, check out the pot odds charts in the sng strat section, I think it will say there.

      Playing pocket pairs is definitely profitable if you play them right. You will only ever see a cheap flop with them and then the times you hit your set chances are you will either stack someone or take most of their chips :)
    • Monkeye
      Monkeye
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.07.2009 Posts: 1,201
      It is not 1 on 15. But 12% chance that means 1 on 8 times.
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Originally posted by Monkeye
      It is not 1 on 15. But 12% chance that means 1 on 8 times.
      Thanks.. I thought 1 in 15 didn't seem right.
    • Anssi
      Anssi
      Black
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 2,173
      source: pocketfives article.

      LONG QUOTE:

      "- In a $10 SNG, your starting equity is $10 and should you double up, to 3000, it becomes $15.55.

      Player Chips Equity


      Player 1
      3000 $15.55

      Player 2
      1500 $10.55

      Player 3
      1500 $10.55

      Player 4
      1500 $10.55

      Player 5
      1500 $10.55

      Player 6
      1500 $10.55

      Player 7
      1500 $10.55

      Player 8
      1500 $10.55

      Player 9
      1500 $10.55


      What this means to you is that, should you end up all-in on hand one, the chips that you risk are worth $10, and the chips that you stand to gain are worth $5.55. $10/$15.55 = 64.5%, so you'll need to win an early all-in confrontation approximately 2/3 of the time just to break even! Try not to get committed in any pot that you don't expect to win at least 2/3 of the time.

      Just to give you an idea of how tight that means you need to be, check out this fight between KK and {JJ+, AK}:

      Hand Pot equity

      KK 62.6%

      {JJ+,AK} 37.4%



      - When two players collide, the missing equity doesn't just disappear. It goes to the other players.

      What this means to you is that, as in the example above, when two players collided, one player loses $10.00, and the other player won $5.55. That leaves $4.45 of "missing equity". That $4.45 doesn't just disappear from the game. It gets divided up among the remaining players. In this case, $.55 goes to each of the eight players that were not involved in the clash. So, if two players do battle on the first hand, and one doubles up, your 1500 chips that were worth $10.00 are now worth $10.55. As you can see, if there is one really bad player in your SNG, this nice benefit can basically eliminate the rake for you. Later, as more players are eliminated, the "missing equity" from these clashes becomes greater, and gets divided up among less players. This means that your benefit from watching two other players collide later in the game will become immense!"
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Thanks for clearing that up Anssi... I need to find the post I read that said it was 82% and pick the maths apart, I just accepted it as fact.

      Do you only play these? If so, how many do you play at a time and what limit are you at? Do you find that they are comfortably beatable above $10?
    • Anssi
      Anssi
      Black
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 2,173
      I beated them up to 50's, 100's were break-even/slightly -EV because they were so reg infested and some regs were even better than I. At highest levels you really can't beat them with more than 5% ROI though.

      Maybe your 82% is about aces? AA vs. TT+, AK is 82,5 vs. 17,5.
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Originally posted by Anssi
      I beated them up to 50's, 100's were break-even/slightly -EV because they were so reg infested and some regs were even better than I. At highest levels you really can't beat them with more than 5% ROI though.

      Maybe your 82% is about aces? AA vs. TT+, AK is 82,5 vs. 17,5.
      It was definitely aimed at the DON's... someone had obviously got their calculations wrong and I was dumb enough to believe them lol.

      Your experience with these things is pretty impressive - I find it difficult to beat even the lowest limit at the moment, I often get knocked out in push/fold and my BR is suffering. I don't know if i'm pushing too light or am getting called too often but either way it's not good lol No amount of time with ICM seems to help.