Sss?

    • loop2troop
      loop2troop
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2009 Posts: 49
      Hi there,

      This is one of my first post, but I have played the SSS for some time and found it interesting, but there are still questions that bothers me all the time.

      Is there a complete breakdown of the strategy, as it seems to me that there is mostly hows but now whys? I do not want to be robot, and would like to get deeper to this strategy. I would like to use the holdem manager to review my sessions, but the strategy is so straightforward that there is little or nothing to review. Furthermore if I do not understand why I am doing something it is hard for me to look for ways to improvement.

      How do you implement reads on opponents while playing SSS, since there is almost no decision making?

      I have a question about immediate sit out after we reach 25BB. What is the reasoning behind it? I guess not to risk the capital excessively, but would not it be more profitable to sit down with 20BB and try to increase it till we play BSS? Thus we would risk the 20BB to make proximately 100BB. So we are getting 1:5, but I have no skills to determine the % of this happening, so the calculation is incomplete. If anybody was thinking about it please share your ideas. :)

      Thanks for the answer.
  • 8 replies
    • MrPavlos
      MrPavlos
      Global
      Joined: 12.02.2009 Posts: 553
      Hey mate,as u get better and better u'll start doing more with SSS but that needs to get to NL50+,SSS is a "robotic" strategy but its very good for new players,to practise the use of odds,learn positioning,betting,etc...
      I personally didnt enjoyed nl10-25 sss but now i am playing NL50 and its quite cool tbh.
      Also after u are more experienced u can stay at the table until u double up or at least win 30bbs.
      Also the idea of sitting till u reach 100bbs is not a good one cause SSS uses some formulas to be proven correct which apply to 16-18bbs and not more,so playing with a mid stack of 30-60bbs wont be SSS and will be random strategy based on starting hands only,which aint that good.If ur interested in BSS ,grind a bit SSS up to NL25 and then u can get a roll for NL10 BSS and give ur shot.

      Hope i helped

      Cheers
    • loop2troop
      loop2troop
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2009 Posts: 49
      Originally posted by MrPavlos
      Hey mate,as u get better and better u'll start doing more with SSS but that needs to get to NL50+,SSS is a "robotic" strategy but its very good for new players,to practise the use of odds,learn positioning,betting,etc...
      I personally didnt enjoyed nl10-25 sss but now i am playing NL50 and its quite cool tbh.
      Also after u are more experienced u can stay at the table until u double up or at least win 30bbs.
      Also the idea of sitting till u reach 100bbs is not a good one cause SSS uses some formulas to be proven correct which apply to 16-18bbs and not more,so playing with a mid stack of 30-60bbs wont be SSS and will be random strategy based on starting hands only,which aint that good.If ur interested in BSS ,grind a bit SSS up to NL25 and then u can get a roll for NL10 BSS and give ur shot.

      Hope i helped

      Cheers
      Thank you for the rapid answer.

      Why it needs to be done at NL50?


      Thats is exactly why I would like to understand the reasoning of the sit out, so I will be able to determine optimal strategy. It is probable that the 5BB win is optimal but I would like to knwo the reason so it wount be so robotic.

      How do you review your sessions, if I may ask?
    • Meiffert
      Meiffert
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.10.2008 Posts: 151
      Hi, loop2troop,
      Originally posted by loop2troop
      Is there a complete breakdown of the strategy, as it seems to me that there is mostly hows but now whys? I do not want to be robot, and would like to get deeper to this strategy.
      Just ask a more specific question about the strategy and we will try to explain the whys.

      Originally posted by loop2troop
      I have a question about immediate sit out after we reach 25BB. What is the reasoning behind it?
      The reason are your implied odds. They change as your stack changes and the advantage of SSS is that you are not giving your opponents the right implied odds.
      Most opponents play as if you were 100 bb deep and they can't adapt. In many cases they even shouldn't adapt because there is other player in the pot who has enough money to offer good implied odds.

      Look at this example:
      You raise with AA in early position and you play to bet and raise any flop (as you always do with AA).
      Now your opponent expects you to have a very strong hand because you raised in early position and he holds 77 himself. He decides to call and his strategy is "if I hit another 7 I will get all-in and win with tree sevens against this guys Aces or kings or whatever he has; if I don't flop that 3rd seven, I fold".
      Because he will flop a set of sevens about 1 time out of 7, he needs to win at least 7x more when he does than what he calls preflop to turn profit in the long run.
      You raised to 4 bb, so he needs to call 4 bb and can win 20 bb from you in total. Therefore he only wins 5 times more than his call when he flops the set and this play is not profitable for him (he makes 1x20 - 6x4 = -4 bb after 7 trials on average).
      But, if you had 30 bb instead, he would win 1x30 - 6x4 = +6 bb after 7 trials on average (30 bb is more than 7x more than your original raise) therefore his play now makes more sense and turns profit.
      And your opponents profit is your loss obviously. Therefore more money in your stack = better implied odds offered to your opponents = they make smaller mistake when calling you with worse hands (and at some stack size it's not a mistake any more) = less profit for you.

      The SSS is most profitable with the correct stack size which offers low implied odds to your opponents but is still big enough, si that you can actually win something and the optimum size is about 20 bb.

      Originally posted by loop2troop
      I guess not to risk the capital excessively, but would not it be more profitable to sit down with 20BB and try to increase it till we play BSS? Thus we would risk the 20BB to make proximately 100BB. So we are getting 1:5, but I have no skills to determine the % of this happening, so the calculation is incomplete. If anybody was thinking about it please share your ideas. :)
      Playing midstack is usually not profitable. A good option is to rebuy your stack to maximum (100 bb or more) once you exceed 25 bb if you don't want to leave the table (because there are not other good tables or there are very bad players on this one).
      But please make sure that you:
      1. Can play big stack effectively (I can't for example, definately not on stakes where I usually play SSS, I would be a loosing big stack strategy player there probably).
      2. Your bankroll is high enough. If you play with say 50 BI SSS, you can't play BSS on the same limit.

      Good luck at the tables
    • loop2troop
      loop2troop
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2009 Posts: 49
      Hi there, thank you for the GREAT answer Meiffert. Sorry not to post earlier.

      Originally posted by Meiffert
      Just ask a more specific question about the strategy and we will try to explain the whys.

      I would like to know how the preflop raise/reraise range was calculated. Why dont we go all in with TT?

      At the moment I am trying to calculate when it is OK to call in the preflop with suited connectors and one gapers. I know how to calculate pod odds when making call on the flop and future streets.

      AN example is I am dealt 8 :heart: 9 :heart: . How many limpers should there be to justify my call. We have 2 possible draws, flush and straight.In the deck there are 11 :heart: left. JT76 gives me possible straight draw and each card gives me 3 outs. Therefore there are 12 outs to make OESD. Total outs = 11+12= 23. Therefore my odds are 23/50 = 0.46/1. Is this calculation correct?


      At the moment I am also trying to implement stealing range to my play, could somebody help me to build it?


      Another problem I am trying to solve is multitabling SSS and BSS. What monitor should I use? At the moment I have 19 inch monitor, but I am thinking of buying 22 inch. What stats of monitor should I be looking at?


      Thank you
    • slowshow
      slowshow
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.07.2009 Posts: 99
      Best SSS 15/20/25 bb buyin rule implied odds explanation by Meiffert :) Since im a newcomer, i calculate odds a bit differently: You have pocket jacks, 2 outs for JJJ set, and 3 cards to come out of ~ 50(flop), so approx 50/2 * 3 = 12 %, 1:8.

      However my style of calc is wrong. It seems ill need just to memoryze odds like shown in table(1:2, 1:7 etc), calculating each time % is brain cpu cycle overload. :f_biggrin:
    • Meiffert
      Meiffert
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.10.2008 Posts: 151
      Originally posted by loop2troop
      I would like to know how the preflop raise/reraise range was calculated. Why dont we go all in with TT?
      Well, the raising ranges are made up so that you have equity advantage over limpers ranges and the average best hands behind you.
      That's why the earlier your possition, the tighter is your raising range since there is higher chance that someone will have better hand than say 77 behind you.
      I don't think there is an exact calculation to find these ranges, it's too complex, because you have to take a large number of factors into consideration.
      For example in the advanced SSS, the ranges are wider than in the basic strategy. Hands like TT or AQs are raised from every possition. But the thing is, it's not just 'better' to raise them (they would be in the basic strategy range, if it was that easy). You have to be more experienced, you need to be able to play better post flop, even out of possition, you need to be able to evaluate flop textures, you should probably have some reads or stats on your opponents etc. to make raising AQ in EP profitable.

      The thing is a little easier with reraising. Here you just go all-in over the villains raise, so you have no postflop situations to consider, you just need to find out whether your equity is good enough to justify the reraise.
      Your EV of folding is 0.
      Your EV of reraising is (pot + stack)*fold% + equity*(final_pot)*(1 - fold%) - stack, where
      pot is the current pot
      stack is your current stack
      fold% is the probability that opponent folds
      equity is the probability that your hand wins a showdown against his calling range
      final_pot is the pot after his call of your reraise minus the rake

      (these calculations ignore the fact that another player behind you can have a strong hand and call as well, but in most cases this won't change the result in a significant way)

      You can figure some of these numbers by using stats (such as pfr and foldto3bet).
      The looser your opponent is with his original raise, the more hands you can profitably reraise.
      There is an article about reraising with some charts in the gold section.
      Against some opponents you can reraise with TT, but without read it isn't recommended. The problem is that many people will call you with a tight range of JJ+, AK, or maybe TT+, AQ+, and your equity here is poor, because you are so often dominated.


      Originally posted by loop2troop
      At the moment I am trying to calculate when it is OK to call in the preflop with suited connectors and one gapers. I know how to calculate pod odds when making call on the flop and future streets.
      I very rarely play them except from SB where I complete if there are multiple limpers in front of me. (I complete small pairs after a single limper as well and play it for set value.)
      I don't say that they can't be played profitably from late possition with multiple limpers but first of all these situations (no raise and many limpers) are pretty rare and even if you find yourself in one, it will be hard to make more than a fraction of a bb on average. I just save myself the trouble and fold. Think about it - even if you flop your draw, you are still an underdog against anyone who has a pair and decides to play with you.


      Originally posted by loop2troop
      At the moment I am also trying to implement stealing range to my play, could somebody help me to build it?
      Well, there is a whole article on stealing and restealing in the gold section. I know that you can't read it yet, but I don't feel that I can just copy that here. xD
      In general, the more the opponents fold to steal (foldBB2steal, foldSB2steal stats), the more you can steal. Also if they just call your steal and then often fold to continuation bet, it's fine as well (fold2cbet flop).
      The more the opponents steal, the more you can resteal (the calculation is the same as above with reraising).

      I think that with your attitude towards improving your game, you will be reading the gold articles in no time. ;)


      Originally posted by loop2troop
      Another problem I am trying to solve is multitabling SSS and BSS. What monitor should I use? At the moment I have 19 inch monitor, but I am thinking of buying 22 inch. What stats of monitor should I be looking at?
      Sorry, no good advice here, I still play on 15.4" notebook screen myself. Let me know if you find the best multitabling setup. ;)
    • AlexanderD22
      AlexanderD22
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.08.2009 Posts: 377
      Originally posted by Meiffert
      Sorry, no good advice here, I still play on 15.4" notebook screen myself. Let me know if you find the best multitabling setup. ;)
      Bit of a thread hijack but I am in the same situation. What I've found is that if you want to play many tables but don't want the windows so small you can't see anything, overlap works. I play at cake so the windows only get so small.

      Keep in mind I have my seat choice set to the far right seat, so I can see my cards all the time. What I do is arange them so that the first table I open is top right and stack them towards the left and then do the same for a second row on the bottom of screen. My reasoning for this is so that I can click through them quickly in the task bar and have them all showing nicely.
    • whySoSerious50
      whySoSerious50
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 38
      I just had the same thought as loop2troop. And I very much appreciate Meiffert effort on explaining some of the situations. I understand we are talking about hard calculations, but I guess these are natural question of any thinking person "Why can I raise with 77 and not with 66?" "Why can I go all in with TT+ in this situation and not that?" stuff like that. I wish there were articles more detailed on the whys, too.

      Specially, because it would expand our capacity in identifying specifc profitable situations that may not be listed on the charts.