Man vs. Machine

    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
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      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Nearly a week ago Phil Laak and Ali Eslami - two professional poker players - beat the computer program Polaris. At the moment the humans seem to be the better poker players, but what about the future? Is there a chance that machines become better than human beings?

      Feel free to discuss!

      Puschkin81
  • 15 replies
    • howard182
      howard182
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      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      The match was a joke, 2000 duplicate hands of heads up limit hold'em. It's practically a certainty that programs will be able to dominate players of all skill levels in every form of poker eventually though, provided that development continues. Neither AI research on complete information games nor game theory are enough to get there but the only inherent advantage humans have is the inate ability to model others' minds that we develop in childhood.

      Hopefully the day that they kill games is distant though and online poker rooms succeed in preventing wide winning bot use for a while after, a thankfully likely prospect as the alternative would be unpleasant for us.
    • Nunki
      Nunki
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      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 865
      I'm sure that in HU Limit computers will at least be able to hold their own with human players. Playing NL at a full table will be a different matter. Developing AI so that it can adjust its play versus 9 others is light-years away from what is currently possible.

      Computers mastery of chess,draughts and to a lesser extent backgammon
      has little relevance when it comes to playing poker. Let's not forget that we human's can easily set insurmountable chess problems for computers which are trivially solved even by mediocre human chess-players. I would contend that a few expert poker players would easily be able to set the computer-poker-player insurmountable problems. Mind you, computers don't tilt.
    • Pacer357
      Pacer357
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      Joined: 18.04.2007 Posts: 1,807
      Of course the bots will beat the humans both heads up and in fullring games.
      There has already been reports about bots winning quite high up in the limits.
      Not long ago about 20 accounts were closed down at party playing mostly the 5/10 limit games with quite a descent winrate. I have read about no-limit bots playing as high as 3/6 with a good winrate on a swedish forum this is not yet proven but the poster had stats on five different players i think with exactly the same stats from the same city. He mined the limits and they were playing pretty much every day for about 14 hours and all reacted in the same way with a set amount of time before betting/folding or calling. Don´t remember what page it was on but i think he posted a long paper about them on 2+2 as well. He has been in contact with the site bu up to the time when I read this nothing has been done about them. If anybody is interested I can look up the link later on.
    • Nunki
      Nunki
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      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 865
      I have read about no-limit bots playing as high as 3/6 with a good winrate on a swedish forum this is not yet proven but the poster had stats on five different players i think with exactly the same stats from the same city. He mined the limits and they were playing pretty much every day for about 14 hours and all reacted in the same way with a set amount of time before betting/folding or calling.


      Anyone smart enough to program a bot to beat 3/6NL is unlikely to tip his hand by allowing himself to be rumbled by a timing tell.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      The NL bots were at FTP.

      I never heart about 5/10$ FL bots and doubt that they can beat humans. Any links for this topic?
    • Pacer357
      Pacer357
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      Joined: 18.04.2007 Posts: 1,807
      Only in swedish I think but I will check it out.
    • Pacer357
      Pacer357
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      Joined: 18.04.2007 Posts: 1,807
      The nolimit bots were at microgaming. And they played nl500-nl2000. And the party bots played fl 10/20-30/60. Haven´t found a direct link to those yet but he writes a bit bout them in his post. The bots at microgaming were shortstacking and played by jam or fold strategy.

      Here is the link for the 2+2 discussion about microgaming

      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=11277921&an=0&page=0#Post11277921
    • ciRith
      ciRith
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Hmm I justz read a few comments and it seems that Microgaming doesn't care about... Partypoker cares and bans every bot as soon as they detect them and they are the best in this. :)
      (They even give you a warning i you use a website of a forbiddden program.)
    • vladnz
      vladnz
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      Joined: 17.01.2007 Posts: 1,355
      when computers are gonna do this they are gonna beat humans at poker

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyZdGTVAalE&mode=related&search=
    • ciRith
      ciRith
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Yeah create hand. :)
    • Pacer357
      Pacer357
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      Joined: 18.04.2007 Posts: 1,807
      There is a forum for botmakers and if you got that site running and play at party at the same time the software will detect it and ban you instantly.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      I think I know the site and I don't like it that nobody can do anything against it. The good thing is that they won't give everyone the bot. (Only if they pay much for it.)
    • Pacer357
      Pacer357
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      Joined: 18.04.2007 Posts: 1,807
      It really sucks and we can only hope that the sites do everything in there power to prevent this. It´s so sickening to hear about microgaming when they get clear evidence laid out in front of them and they still don´t do anything about it. How hard could it be to make a program that tells the player to write in a word from time to time while your playing and to track computers from timing tells and such. They can charge rakes that are sickening but wouldn´t it be nice if they could put some of that rake to good use. I would much rather pay rake to a site if I knew they were actively working against this then having a few lousy bonuses and freerolls.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
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      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Correct. :)

      The poor thing is that the botprotection via "wordinput" etc isn't very safe. You maybe now rapidshare where it's required to enter some letters as well and it seems to be easy for bots to typ it in.

      A better protection is a logical question like "Please select the biggest red dog" (A picture with several dogs with all kind of colours and sizes.)

      Partypoker already has a bot protection like rapidshare but it's not that safe. :) (Better than nothing.)
    • c4t0r
      c4t0r
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      Joined: 10.07.2007 Posts: 60
      There is that "Please type in the numbers/letters you can read below" check to make sure its not a bot (I had that popup once on me at PartyPoker). Pretty much the same technology as many spam-protection softwares use. In my professional live i develop OCR software, and i can tell you that even if they try to make those numbers hard to read for an OCR, its just a joke... (our software would easily be able to read that stuff :tongue: ).

      So i guess the only real protection is logical questions (that keep changing). Personally i am pretty sure that its already possible to program bots that could win money on the medium limits.