[Closed] $12 - 77 es

What are you putting him on after an UTG raise, calling 2 streets and shoving the river?

Imho, the bets are a bit on the big side.

Since you have the extra oesd I think both b/f small like 90-100 to get some value from his overcard hands or c/c flop would be fine. However, once you bet big and get called I'd continue very cautiously, check turn and see what happens, but preparing to give it up when he fires. Actually I don't mind just c/f flop when his utg is tight and you don't know how he plays postflop. As played turn is mehhh and river is speeeew.

would you really b/f an overpair + OESD on the flop against an unknown at the 12s???

i guess i got waaayyy too attached to my hand and in the long run im just value towning myself against overpairs.

you will probably lol at what he turned up with

Originally posted by lessthanthreee
would you really b/f an overpair + OESD on the flop against an unknown at the 12s???

i guess i got waaayyy too attached to my hand and in the long run im just value towning myself against overpairs.

you will probably lol at what he turned up with

It's kind of a tough hand really. I think you will have about 50% equity on the flop against his utg range a lot. However, you are oop and the main problem is, that if you are ahead later in the hand you won't be able to extract any value while he can easily take you to value town or even bluff you off with the worse hand sometimes. Honestly, if you did not have the oesd I'd just c/f, so I think c/c flop could be fine (or b/f small, which does essentially the same). But it's a really awkward spot to be in and I don't think that you will extract a lot of value even against bad players. I mean does his utg range really has A6, A5 etc that he will get in on the flop to make up for his overpairs that you can bet/3bet flop?? Think of his utg range and how he will play parts of his range. Is there a way to exploit him? I don't think that's gonna be that easy for you while he has lots of options to make you cry.

yeah its a sick spot...

i dont know if i like c/c flop because we give a huge part of his range (unpaired overcards) a cheap/free look at hitting the turn. i think b/f might be better for protection and to get value from random overs/one pair type hands.

but if my flop line should be b/f then i dont think i can suddenly c/f that turn when he calls us.

so maybe i should c/c turn and then c/c river due to pot odds/bluff catching ?

lol @ sng post flop skill.

i agree that a huge part of his range is value-towning us, its just hard to figure out if its worth our chips to call down with a weak overpair + oesd this early..... and im starting to think not.

Originally posted by lessthanthreee
yeah its a sick spot...

i dont know if i like c/c flop because we give a huge part of his range (unpaired overcards) a cheap/free look at hitting the turn. i think b/f might be better for protection and to get value from random overs/one pair type hands.

but if my flop line should be b/f then i dont think i can suddenly c/f that turn when he calls us.

so maybe i should c/c turn and then c/c river due to pot odds/bluff catching ?

lol @ sng post flop skill.

i agree that a huge part of his range is value-towning us, its just hard to figure out if its worth our chips to call down with a weak overpair + oesd this early..... and im starting to think not.

You might want to check a recent 2+2 thread (if you don't know it yet of course) which deals with a similar hand ( http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/36/stt-strategy/16-77-set-mining-hitting-overpair-757943 ). The problem with both b/f and c/c are that you are essentially hoping to check it down after the flop, which is obv a bad idea once people start to fire the turn more often. But I think given your implieds when you do hit and the fact that most people play straight forward / passive and actually do check it down sometimes, b/f or c/c flop can be profitable. However, I don't want to get sucked into the hand like you got and invest way to much. In doubt, I don't think it's bad to just pass all the trouble and c/f flop and stick to your set mining plan. Also there is no way to profitable play 3 streets of betting with an overpair 77's against an utg range.

thanks hazz that thread is awesome.

Not quite the same. In that thread we don't have OESD which adds a huge amount to our equity against better hands. So I would c/c flop c/c turn c/f river. Without the OESD I think c/f flop is fine.