[NL2-NL10] QQ from utg

    • mariaprodanova
      mariaprodanova
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.07.2010 Posts: 86
      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      BB:
      $8.68
      Hero:
      $9.64

      0.05/0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (5 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Elephant 0.88 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q:heart: , Q:club:
      Hero raises to $0.30, 3 folds, BB raises to $0.50, Hero calls $0.20.

      Flop: ($1.05) 9:club: , 8:spade: , K:heart: (2 players)
      BB bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60.

      Turn: ($2.25) K:spade: (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero checks.

      River: ($2.25) T:club: (2 players)
      BB bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50.

      Final Pot: $5.25
  • 13 replies
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Preflop: I would 4b that m3b to about $1.5 and fold to a push. But I don't mind the flat call IP. Depends on how you read his 3bet range.

      I would play the same on flop.

      On the turn you can play bet/fold. Villain's check looks weak and if you bet, JJ/TT might still call. If villain call turn/bet river you also have a easy fold.

      As played you can still fold river. The T completes a lot of draws and TT boated up there. Looks like either a value bet with a monster or a thin value bet with Kx or AA.

      If you think about his range, you will see that JJ is the only hand that you can beat there and I don't see JJ betting like that on the river.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,

      Originally posted by yeahyoung0312
      Preflop: I would 4b that m3b to about $1.5 and fold to a push. But I don't mind the flat call IP. Depends on how you read his 3bet range.

      I would play the same on flop.

      On the turn you can play bet/fold. Villain's check looks weak and if you bet, JJ/TT might still call. If villain call turn/bet river you also have a easy fold.

      As played you can still fold river. The T completes a lot of draws and TT boated up there. Looks like either a value bet with a monster or a thin value bet with Kx or AA.

      If you think about his range, you will see that JJ is the only hand that you can beat there and I don't see JJ betting like that on the river.
      Sounds good, except that the river bet with Kx/AA is by no mean thin at all. It might look thin to people who aren't that good at valuebetting so it's possible this 18/7 guy actually checks AA there, but I do think most people will bet Kx pretty much always.


      Hope it helps.
    • mariaprodanova
      mariaprodanova
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.07.2010 Posts: 86
      So 4bet/folding is better than flatting vs TAGs? I didn't want to isolate myself by 4betting. What if he calls the 4bet? What do I do on the flop and onwards? I guess he'd check it to me and then I bet/fold? I'd lose a lot that way.

      I personally blame that 2nd K. If it hadn't come I was gonna check/fold the turn and river, but when it came and made it less likely he has one I checked the turn to call the river. The T was a bad card indeed but I was a bit tilted, as I said, I lost 10 stacks yesterday, and today almost one more :/ Something must be very wrong with my game :f_frown:

      He had AK btw.
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      SH 18/14 is no TAG.

      Well I said I actually liked your call preflop. You don't have to convince yourself he had a K UNTIL he value bets river. On the river you should totally update your hypothesis with the new piece of information.
    • mariaprodanova
      mariaprodanova
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.07.2010 Posts: 86
      whats a tag on sh then? imo like 70% of ppl on nl10 on everest are taggy or even nitty at 15-20 vpip and 14-22 pfr, where have all the fish gone?!
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Like 11/9 or 13/13? I don't know cause recently I play 19/15 and I don't think I'm playing like a TAG... Or maybe I am... Hmm...
    • mariaprodanova
      mariaprodanova
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.07.2010 Posts: 86
      I still don't understand...are you saying that my 22/17 stats are laggy?
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by mariaprodanova
      I still don't understand...are you saying that my 22/17 stats are laggy?
      I think 19/15 and 22/17 are not that different if the sample size is small, say 5K. And I think 3bet percentage is important in differentiating between a LAG and a TAG.

      What I was saying is you can't really confidently tell one is a TAG or not by stats of 18/14 over a 360 hands.
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,


      Anything from 0/0 to 23/19 is taggish for me to a degree. Once you start getting to 24/20 27/23 territory that'q usually what we'd call a semi-lag. Then when you encounter people with 28+/24+ you can generally consider them real lags.

      What he's saying with 4-bet/fold line is that generally while it's possible he's min3bet/calling with crap sometimes, if he min3bet/jams he has KK+ pretty damn often. So while there is value somewhere in not folding and even putting more money in against potentially JJ-/AQ+, if he jams on you you're a 4:1 dog instantly.

      If you prefer you can just call, but then you'll have to fold on many Kx/Ax flops and even if you've got an overpair you won't know where you're at. Is it likely that this 18/7 guy would min3bet JJ and pot it all the way into you with this overpair? Maybe, probably not. So usually once he pots it twice into you really you're toast anyway and you'll get stacked all the same if you can't find a fold.


      Hope it helps.
    • mariaprodanova
      mariaprodanova
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.07.2010 Posts: 86
      Originally posted by MaestroOfZerg
      Is it likely that this 18/7 guy would min3bet JJ and pot it all the way into you with this overpair? Maybe, probably not. So usually once he pots it twice into you really you're toast anyway and you'll get stacked all the same if you can't find a fold.
      But he didn't pot anywhere :rolleyes: Or is this a scenario for the only possibility to stack him?

      OK so against a TAG preflop I play 22-JJ 2bet/call, QQ 2bet/4bet/fold and KK+ 2bet/4bet/push. How about AK then? I usually play it like you say I should play the QQ - or 2bet/call but I don't really know if that's a good way to play it cause if I don't hit I just have to fold more often than not, cause I don't expect a showdown with Ax that I dominate very often, and I don't like that very much. But maybe if I hit an A and he hits it with AQ, or K which he hits with KQ I get a big payout so it might be profitable...?
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,

      Originally posted by mariaprodanova
      Originally posted by MaestroOfZerg
      Is it likely that this 18/7 guy would min3bet JJ and pot it all the way into you with this overpair? Maybe, probably not. So usually once he pots it twice into you really you're toast anyway and you'll get stacked all the same if you can't find a fold.
      But he didn't pot anywhere :rolleyes: Or is this a scenario for the only possibility to stack him?

      OK so against a TAG preflop I play 22-JJ 2bet/call, QQ 2bet/4bet/fold and KK+ 2bet/4bet/push. How about AK then? I usually play it like you say I should play the QQ - or 2bet/call but I don't really know if that's a good way to play it cause if I don't hit I just have to fold more often than not, cause I don't expect a showdown with Ax that I dominate very often, and I don't like that very much. But maybe if I hit an A and he hits it with AQ, or K which he hits with KQ I get a big payout so it might be profitable...?
      It's not specific enough, don't make hard and cold rules for yourself against such a broad category like "TAGs".

      If a 12/11 3bets you usually you can only set mine with QQ and fold AK especially OOP. However if his blinds 3bet% is 15% and chances are even if he's a nit he's 3betting light a bunch, which can easily make it a 4bet or a call in position with AK to let him c-bet bluff.

      If a 23/20 3bets you in late position he's usually doing it somewhat light unless his 3bet% is very low, meaning it's perfectly fine to go ahead and 4-bet/call AK/QQ even if know when he 5bets that you're often flipping/dead, the dead money of his 3bet/folds make up for that. If however he looks tight with his 3bets, or he's 3betting MPvsUTG and/or your image is very tight/nitty, chances are you'll own yourself by going broke with those hands because he knows to a degree that your range is stronger (even if he's just following some chart he doesnt have the same 3betting range everywhere).

      Then when you'll get to higher stakes you'll find people who understand all that and start playing everything reversed, or know how to build history with you and exploit it later on by making you adjust the wrong way. It's horrible, it's wonderful. It's poker.

      Just take a deep breath, sum up what you know about your villain when you get into those spots and make your own call for each situation. You might lose some money short-term, but that's the only way you'll start thinking about it the right way and really trust yourself when you start making good decisions on average.


      Hope it helps.
    • yeahyoung0312
      yeahyoung0312
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by MaestroOfZerg
      Then when you'll get to higher stakes you'll find people who understand all that and start playing everything reversed, or know how to build history with you and exploit it later on by making you adjust the wrong way. It's horrible, it's wonderful. It's poker.
      By "reversed" do you mean they 3bet light against our UTG OR, knowing our image is tight, and they 3bet tight against our CO/BU OR?
    • MaestroOfZerg
      MaestroOfZerg
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 5,510
      Hi,


      I mean they'll purposedly be strong when you expect them to be weak and the opposite. It's pretty transparent at small stakes still because nobody is good enough to do an awesome job of it, but it can be annoying.

      So yeah, they'll 3bet light your UTG/MP ORs if they're still wide enough that it's profitable, expecting you to give a lot of credit to the 3bet given the positions.

      They'll 3bet your late position ORs in a way that makes you likely to overadjust at the wrong time. You'll see some players always 3betting you Blinds vs Late positions the first time around, so that if they do get a big hand next round they can do it again and look like they're totally out of line. Most of them will actually 3bet light at least twice in a row to make sure you get the message. For a while it had been going on so much that the "standard" response was to just 4bet "get off me!" the first 3bet so that they'd get the message too, now it calmed down a bit.

      Just basic examples of the leveling shenanigans involved, you get the picture.


      Hope it helps.