[NL2-NL10] NL 200 engl. Coaching 5.11.07

    • Sebra
      Joined: 01.08.2006 Posts: 1,121
      Hand from coaching session:

      UTG and BB were both fishy players. UTG doesn't raise preflop too much (PFR 5%) but is relativ aggro postflop (AF 2.x). BB is a total donk.

      Party Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
      LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

      Hero (CO): $476.57
      BTN: $415.45
      SB: $232.50
      BB: $69.72
      UTG: $170.10
      MP: $454.50

      Pre-Flop: K:spade: K:diamond: dealt to Hero (CO)
      UTG calls $2, MP folds, [color:red]Hero raises to $10[/color], 2 folds, BB calls $8, UTG calls $8

      Flop: ($31) J:club: 7:diamond: Q:heart: (3 Players)
      BB checks, UTG checks, [color:red]Hero bets $22[/color], [color:red]BB raises to $59.72 and is All-In[/color], [color:red]UTG raises to $160.10 and is All-In[/color], Hero calls $138.10

      Turn: ($410.92) 5:heart: (3 Players - 1 is All-In)

      River: ($410.92) 8:club: (3 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Results: $410.92 Pot ($3.50 Rake)
  • 9 replies
    • rubysilesia
      Joined: 03.07.2007 Posts: 351
      I would fold this. Looks like 2 pair or set to me. If one of them has a pair than the other must have something descent to AI here.
    • aciddrop
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      The size of the reraise here makes it look more like a squeeze play. He also knows BB is a donk, and hopes to frighten you off and take his money. If he has you beat, does he really want to get rid of you?
    • degnic
      Joined: 06.02.2007 Posts: 3,953
      pretty weird line by UTG by limp/calling pf and check/reraising on flop, I would be more worried if he just coldcalled BB's AI on flop. Something like T9 would make sense to me, or maybe AQ with his pfr. Either way, I would propably call with your reads, if BB folded and UTG went AI it would be another story.

      what was UTG's WTSD & WSD% btw? I think those would help the decission aswell.
    • Puschkin81
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Hi guys!

      This is a difficult situation. The decisive point is: why does the UTG player push all-in? Does he know that BB is a total donk? If we assume that he doesn't know that, it's an easy fold because he normally has a good hand. If he does know it he can also push one pair or maybe even a draw especially if he is an aggressive player. Considering the fact that a lot of money is already in the pot and assuming that BB can push almost every hand here, I think we have to call. We are getting 2:1 pot odds which should be enough for calling here.

      Other thoughts?

      Good luck at the tables!
    • undercover82
      Joined: 09.12.2006 Posts: 813
      When i saw sebra playing the hand , i was searching for the fold button :D .
      UTG's action looks very strong , if he doesnt respect the donk's all in he should at least give some respect to your big contibet against 2 players. If his stacksize was like 20BB smaller , it would be a lot easier call.
      I 'd assume i am behind most of the time but probably call because of the pot odds. Fold doesnt look like a huge mistake either though.
    • timukasr
      Joined: 26.05.2007 Posts: 1,820
      I hink that was correct move, because propably BB had something and UTG had draw or TPTK. Now if would be only BB then you should fold but with that extra UTG money you should call.
    • rrwillem
      Joined: 17.09.2007 Posts: 538
      I think he doesnt have a draw, but he has strong hand and wants your potential draw out. 1 of the possible limp-call hands is 77. If I think BB has top pair or even 2 pair, I want to play heads up. Getting a 3rd party with draws would be in my disadvantage. Id play my 77 like that for sure :p

      High Stakes Poker scenario is indeed quite te same, but this time the other way around. 1 has a draw and wants to draw at it heads up. Its up to you to figure to which 1 he is trying. My radar would ring 77 on this one, mainly because of the pre-flop limp/call. If id feel commited id still call though. Ive been wrong often enough :p
    • Sebra
      Joined: 01.08.2006 Posts: 1,121
      Hey Pushkin, you should've told me that you put it on the main page ;)

      The highstakes poker hand is really sick too, action and board is a little bit different but yes, comparable. Maybe Korn should stake me for next season =)

      But I will do the math right now and tell you why I still think this is a good play in this situation.

      UTG's preflop rasing range is pretty small and I saw him limping before with big Aces. He had a vpip of around 30%, but let's say he folds the lower end of it to the raise, even though he is capable of calling KJ oop vs. a raise (as I said, he is a weak player).

      BB can really have anything, he played like 50% of his hands, was shortstacking after losing some pots, so his range is wide.

      UTG: AT+ KJ+ QT+ 22+ and maybe some suited connectors/cards
      BB: A5+ K9+ QT+ JT 22+ and some real garbage I can't even think of.

      UTG: 19%
      BB: 18%
      Hero: 63%

      Usually a good flop for KK just because the bad players have hit something here on the flop and want to fight with it. So I bet out 22, you can discuss if I can bet a little bit bigger here, but the stacksizes were pretty small and I will get them all-in by the river without an overbet. Also, I don't want to scare them away.

      BB now shoves all-in, which would have been an easy call regarding his playing style and the reasons I have given before. But then UTG overpushes BB's allin and I have to think about with which hands is he doing this?

      Set: It's definitly possible. Even though there is a chance he doesn't overpush the all-in and also he doesn't always just check-call preflop with QQ and JJ. So let's deduct one possible set from his range because of these reasons.

      2 pair: I don't expect him to play Q7 or J7, just put QJ(s) in his range.

      Top pair: Also possible by the way he is playing. Rememberm he plays passive preflop but isn't passive postflop and stacks off or calls huge bets lightly postflop. Here we also have to deduct some hands from his range because sometimes he is rasing them preflop and also sometimes he won't stack off hitting top pair (even though pretty unlikely to see a fold here), so just put in AQ but not KQ in his range now.

      A draw: There is just one draw out there, and this is the possible straight draw. I know he is aggressive and he should know that BB is bad, so maybe he thought that KT is in good shape against BB with overcard+oesd and he can get me to fold with a push what I would do with something less than KK in this situation. But I expect this to be not a huge part of his range, so I just put in KTs (4 combinations out of 16).

      BB: TT+ 77 AQs AJs KJs Q9s+ AQo AJo KQo QTo+
      UTG: JJ 77 AQ KTs QJ

      UTG: 43%
      BB: 22%
      Hero: 35%

      So was this the right call? For this we have to consider the pot odds I get on my call. I had to pay 138.10$ to win a pot worth of 271.82 so roughly 2:1 odds. I had to be good 34% of the time to break even so my play was, even if it's pretty close, +EV. But this is regarding the absolute worst case scenario, because they were wild and fishy, their range can be wider than the one I have calculated and then my play gets even more +EV.

      And of course I can't calculate this on the fly at the table, but I saw the good pot odds (2:1), know they also play allin with TP in these situations and went with my gut. Afterwards you should prove this via pokerstove and if it seems to be a mistake you act differently the next time you are into such a situation.

      Oh and yeah, of course I was in the almost worst case scenario possible because UTG had 2pair QJ and BB had AA so he counterfeited the possibility of pairing the board to win me the hand.
    • Puschkin81
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Hi Sebra!

      Nice analysis. Sorry, next time I will inform you about the news. Oh and I will ask Korn about staking you, but I think that will become difficult ;)

      Good luck at the tables!