[Closed] 4B pot w AK IP

A lot of levelling going on here at Nl100 in your mind. He probably has JTs-JAs type of hand when he comes over the top on you on the turn, i really doubt he would shove QQ and even KK. It is clearly a fold on the turn as played.

I prefer 23-24 preflop 4bet, but if he doesnt 5bet light or flats 4bets then i actually prefer flatting his 3bet. I guess 4betting to 20-22 makes more sense if you think you put him into push / fold mode by 4betting to 24, but i still prefer flatting over 4betting if he doesnt 5b shove light or flat 4bets OOP.

Flop i like cbetting and i like your sizing, i guess i slightly prefer 20$

Turn i do not like. I think he rarely has 88 or below and i don't mind taking a showdown vs the remaining 8 combos of AK and 12 combos of AQ + realizing my equity. If he bets river when i check back i just fold, he has high WTSD so i think he is likely to take the showdown w/ AQ and AK. I also doubt you fold out AK by betting 28 into 80 if he is that call happy (not sure though). Also i think he often 5bets AK all in pre as well.

And i think ch/call, c/r AI w/ AQ is a bad line for villain to take since the average opponent wont fold QQ in this spot and also wont barrel AQ / AK 100% of the time. Also i doubt you have AQ in your 4betting range as well as other regs. You would simply not 4bet that, but you would just flat that pre, i think 4betting AQ is pretty bad unless you have a very good reason to

Originally posted by MathhNes
A lot of levelling going on here at Nl100 in your mind. He probably has JTs-JAs type of hand when he comes over the top on you on the turn,

It doesn't make sense to jam Jx here because I am folding all my bluffs and I will bet the river with everything I would call his shove. That's the reason then why I started to analyze this hand a bit deeper. at NL100 I think this is a fold on turn but I was curious to go deeper for the sake of it

Originally posted by MathhNes
i really doubt he would shove QQ and even KK. It is clearly a fold on the turn as played.

I think he has to shove QQ to protect vs my AK. Otherwise I am getting decent odds to hit my outs. In fact I think that it is the only hands that he should be shoving for value. All the rest I think he should simply Ck/C.

Originally posted by MathhNes
I prefer 23-24 preflop 4bet, but if he doesnt 5bet light or flats 4bets then i actually prefer flatting his 3bet. I guess 4betting to 20-22 makes more sense if you think you put him into push / fold mode by 4betting to 24, but i still prefer flatting over 4betting if he doesnt 5b shove light or flat 4bets OOP.

Yeah could be true

Originally posted by MathhNes
Turn i do not like. I think he rarely has 88 or below and i don't mind taking a showdown vs the remaining 8 combos of AK and 12 combos of AQ + realizing my equity. If he bets river when i check back i just fold, he has high WTSD so i think he is likely to take the showdown w/ AQ and AK. I also doubt you fold out AK by betting 28 into 80 if he is that call happy (not sure though). Also i think he often 5bets AK all in pre as well.

Since we are deep I don't think he 5B AK.
The idea behind the small turn bet is that I ask him if he wants to play for stacks. He isn't going to call turn and Ck/Fold river.
But still I am not sure if I should bet or as you said Ck and try to hit.
The only thing I don't like with Checking that turn is that I never do it with value hands so he can stab river and I have to fold.

Originally posted by MathhNes
And i think ch/call, c/r AI w/ AQ is a bad line for villain to take since the average opponent wont fold QQ in this spot and also wont barrel AQ / AK 100% of the time.

QQ won't fold but AK will and combos wise that's probably enough. Also here my range is narrow but if I have a 4B bluff range (which I dont here vs him bc he is aggro) I will fold more stuff.

Originally posted by MathhNes
Also i doubt you have AQ in your 4betting range as well as other regs. You would simply not 4bet that, but you would just flat that pre, i think 4betting AQ is pretty bad unless you have a very good reason to

Yeah I agree with that.

I think he isn't calling here with any offsuit cards, and he 5bets AK IMO. Ppl 4bet bluffs too much deep, now many adjust to that and 5bets wider for value. So his preflop range is something like JJ-99,JTs,QJs,KQs,ATs-AQs. When he calls cbet, there is no point in betting turn. If he peels with all jacks, pairs and AQ, we fold out only 1 hand that beat us - 99. I'd fold even AA here when he shoves, don't believe he has bluffing range here and we beat nothing.

p.s. he could have AA sometimes, I have seen ppl calling there with AA, sometimes do it myself, coz we need to strengthen our 4bet calling range.

Originally posted by getdotacom
I think he isn't calling here with any offsuit cards, and he 5bets AK IMO. Ppl 4bet bluffs too much deep, now many adjust to that and 5bets wider for value. So his preflop range is something like JJ-99,JTs,QJs,KQs,ATs-AQs. When he calls cbet, there is no point in betting turn. If he peels with all jacks, pairs and AQ, we fold out only 1 hand that beat us - 99. I'd fold even AA here when he shoves, don't believe he has bluffing range here and we beat nothing.

p.s. he could have AA sometimes, I have seen ppl calling there with AA, sometimes do it myself, coz we need to strengthen our 4bet calling range.

Pretty wide calling range OOP imo. But if it is I agree that bet turn is useless.

In that case I guess I should certainly value 4B with AQ.

PS: I would call most of the time the 4B w AA I think

Originally posted by Dublimax

PS: I would call most of the time the 4B w AA I think

I think that is going to be a mistake since you have such a huge preflop edge when you do get it in vs QQ/KK, AK. I slightly prefer flatting w/ KK rather than AA since it has lower equity preflop and same blockers and still close enough the same postflop playability. If he has AK and a king doesnt flop and you would have gotten the money in with AA, you lose such a huge +EV spot. This is of course all villain dependent but as a standard is what i'm saying.

I think most has been said about the hand but what I still dont get is

I think he has to shove QQ to protect vs my AK. Otherwise I am getting decent odds to hit my outs. In fact I think that it is the only hands that he should be shoving for value. All the rest I think he should simply Ck/C.

That would turn his QQ into a bluff here, its not really protecting. We are not calling with a worse hand. Also he has implied odds vs our AK, you say we have 8 outs but it's actually 6, when a Q comes we stack off vs a full house.

Originally posted by Oereuh
I think most has been said about the hand but what I still dont get is

I think he has to shove QQ to protect vs my AK. Otherwise I am getting decent odds to hit my outs. In fact I think that it is the only hands that he should be shoving for value. All the rest I think he should simply Ck/C.

That would turn his QQ into a bluff here, its not really protecting. We are not calling with a worse hand. Also he has implied odds vs our AK, you say we have 8 outs but it's actually 6, when a Q comes we stack off vs a full house.

Raising for protection is not turning a hand into a bluff.

It's like if you know 100% I have a FD on T62ss when I donk 1/10. What do you do? You raise for protection eventhough you know for sure that I will fold. If you don't I set up the right odds for my FD.

And yes it's only 6 outs w AK vs QQ.

Ok you're right about that, I kinda said it wrong. A flushdraw is 9 outs + possible overcards, this is only 6 outs. So I really dont think he has to protect here, you are not even getting that decent odds to hit really.

I'm either checking turn or betting with the plan of shoving the river.
Either I assume he's folding all AQ and AK and calling TT and QQ+, then betting with the plan of shoving river is generally best because obv we get almost all better hands to fold. However, his WTSD is so absurdly high that he might not fold PPs by the river, so checking is probably better vs him.

If he's capable of turning AQ, AK or even smth like TT into a bluff by c/shoving turn, then a check is certainly better because we get to realize our equity (ofc we'll have a riverdecision if he bets).

For him the c/c-c/shove line is great if we fold PPs, and I think most opponents will - their plan is b/f flop, b/f turn, check river.