[Closed] 5bet bluf or give it up?

what about MP , imagine he folds

btw would fold this , against two players his range has to be high

yea MP fold

he made it 30k out of his 107k stack, he's a good winning player and you want to bluff him? please fold! when good players make it more than 1/4 of their stack they aren't folding!

fwiw do some maths from his end:

i've made it 30k/107k meaning i gotta call 77k more to win 107000+107000+1860+7500 = 34.5% required disregarding ICM.

so from our end we're thinking whether we can ship a2s for value (no)

Originally posted by chenny8888
he made it 30k out of his 107k stack, he's a good winning player and you want to bluff him? please fold! when good players make it more than 1/4 of their stack they aren't folding!

fwiw do some maths from his end:

i've made it 30k/107k meaning i gotta call 77k more to win 107000+107000+1860+7500 = 34.5% required disregarding ICM.

so from our end we're thinking whether we can ship a2s for value (no)

lol math

i was talking about meta game
if he is good he can pick up that i was 3 betting MP guy often and he was folding every time and this was good spot for him to cold 4bet bluff and if we 5bet our line looks very strong so he can find some hero folds sometimes (something like AT-AQ/66-JJ if he decide to 4bet them)and we have some eq when we got called

what range are you repping to make him fold those hands? KK+? cause against any range with AK in it he can't fold getting 2:1...

math is very useful in these spots to understand when people can be bluffing and when people are just setting an (obvious) tarp for you to spaz into.

fwiw i understand cold 4bets

2 diff hands:

http://www.pokerhand.org/?6217132

PokerStars Game #63615365952: Tournament #404460365, $300+$20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2011/06/21 7:19:40 CT [2011/06/21 8:19:40 ET]
Table '404460365 4' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 2: javahound (22360 in chips)
Seat 3: hav0cLOL (12711 in chips)
Seat 7: softfoot (14353 in chips)
Seat 8: slavOuchka (13576 in chips)
javahound: posts the ante 25
hav0cLOL: posts the ante 25
softfoot: posts the ante 25
slavOuchka: posts the ante 25
softfoot: posts small blind 150
slavOuchka: posts big blind 300
HOLE CARDS
Dealt to hav0cLOL [Qc 4c]
javahound: raises 300 to 600
hav0cLOL: raises 900 to 1500
softfoot: folds
slavOuchka: raises 1500 to 3000
javahound: folds
hav0cLOL: raises 9686 to 12686 and is all-in
slavOuchka: folds
Uncalled bet (9686) returned to hav0cLOL
hav0cLOL collected 6850 from pot
hav0cLOL: doesn't show hand
SUMMARY
Total pot 6850 | Rake 0
Seat 2: javahound folded before Flop
Seat 3: hav0cLOL (button) collected (6850)
Seat 7: softfoot (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: slavOuchka (big blind) folded before Flop

i do understand math, and is true that he has EQ to call with almost any hand that he 3bet with.
But the Q here is how he values his MTT live does he call cos he got eq (cos this is MTT not cash game and he will have litle less then avg stack if he fold).

But if i get u right, u r saying that if some1 invest 1/3 of his stack on a 4bet or 3bet he is (shouldn't) never folding, and good player should know that and not spazz?

obv imo at bigger bi levels villains are more capable of making plays/cold 4bet blufs, then on lower bi so imo villain in this spot has only value range tbh.

i just want to say that on the other side if good player knows that other good player knows that when he make that kind of committing 3b/4b he is not folding, and still he shove repping strong hand/range, does even getting good odds on call -> makes call good play considering ICM and MTT live.
also u sure know that every player, even good one, is not capable/crazy enough to 5bet shove light in that spot
and considering all this does 5bAI blufing in this kinda spots is good play? for ex. if u think that when some one shove on u in that spot he has range TT+,AQ+, and some times Ah2h,As4s would u call with TT/JJ/AQ in that spot?
thoughts?

btw nice hands, wp
- about that a5 hand why u 5bet him so small he will flat a ton there imo? i would make it 7k or 8k...
did u do that to make ur blufs cheaper and not giving him chance to shove on u (cos if he shove and u got it he lose his stack, and if he shove and u r blufing u loose smaller% of ur stack)
i like that small bet on flop cos obv u reping very narow range, but what r ur plans if he flat?

Originally posted by bonebt
btw nice hands, wp
- about that a5 hand why u 5bet him so small he will flat a ton there imo? i would make it 7k or 8k...
did u do that to make ur blufs cheaper and not giving him chance to shove on u (cos if he shove and u got it he lose his stack, and if he shove and u r blufing u loose smaller% of ur stack)
i like that small bet on flop cos obv u reping very narow range, but what r ur plans if he flat?

Cuz I make my value same size in this spot as his range is very FoS yet I want to still be able to 5bet bluff (where I can 5bet/fold)

If he flats flop I barrel some turns but mostly give up. If I barrel turn I ship river, but I barrel turn small also.

Anyway unless you have specific reads that your opponent is capable (or incapable) of understanding pot odds and consequently makes xbet/folds for this portion of his stack, then I wouldn't shove. Personally if someone makes this size with TT/JJ or AQ then their intention is definitely to call the shove and DEFINITELY to call the guy who 3bet (maybe they fold vs 2 all-ins).

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer
SB ($179.10)
BB ($89.40)
UTG ($50)
UTG+1 ($49.95)
UTG+2 ($112)
MP1 ($124.95)
CO ($91.40)
Hero ($52.20)

UTG+1 antes $0.10
UTG+2 antes $0.10
MP1 antes $0.10
CO antes $0.10
Hero antes $0.10
SB antes $0.10
BB antes $0.10
UTG antes $0.10

Dealt to Hero 6♣ 5♣

fold, fold, fold, MP1 raises to $2.00, fold, CO raises to $6.00, Hero raises to $15.00,

Nope, I'm not calling a 5bet. Forget it.

like i'm a bit of a spaz, probably considered more so overall than either of you guys but this 65s hand... is really really poorly played. first almost committing yourself vs his range isn't great.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 70.214% 69.99% 00.22% 191764008 601232.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 29.786% 29.57% 00.22% 81002168 601232.00 { 65s }

(you need around 33% so you can actually still fold)

Secondly vs his actual value range you have no blockers. No A no K in your hand means that he has all of his AK, JJ+ hands in his hand.

Third your sizing is 15 in a spot where people are flatting very rarely. Why not make it 12.5/52? Serves same purpose and is basically a cheaper bluff.

Fourth your hand doesn't flop good nearly often enough postflop. If we have a Kx or Ax hand sometimes we can outflop his JJ-QQ hands and seeing as it's a 4bet pot he's rarely folding.

And fifth there's STILL 2 people behind you that can wake up with KK+ and continue.

but hey he may have folded

This was more of a - MP1 open raise a lot and folds to 3bets a lot, CO is decent player and probably knows this plus he 3bets a lot from CO and folds 80% to 4bets, I have two cards. I could of course make it smaller since they are rarely just calling anyway.

My point of posting it is that you don't always call a 5bet. 4bet/fold is an option.

65 hand is not same spot as original hand

- 65 is cash game a2s is late in mtt
- 65 is 100+bb deep a2s is ~40bb deep
etc

chenny has a good point, he is saying that most people dont cold 4bet bluff in that spot (talking about a2s hand) so in reality we dont have any FEQ in that spot and sure we cant shove a2s for value, so => fold