FT buble at 5.4 kno KQs

Call and donk shove non diamond non A turn?

Originally posted by amplifyd
Call and donk shove non diamond non A turn?

ch/ fold if or A hit on turn?

what u think about pre?

villain was random donk btw

Yea cos I mean A hit his range hard and I don't think we ever get bluffed if a diamond hits.

I am wanting to shove to like protect our equity share vs his random XYd hand but maybe it is not even worth it? I mean we only get called by better and we have him pretty crushed most of time, plus people don't bluff monotone boards blablabla so I think perhaps ch/fold turn and river is ok, we can even make a small vb on safe runouts if it gets checked through on the turn - but we aren't really vbing on the turn and so actually probably makes little sense to donkshove turn.

Interested to see what others think

i c/rai he call off with KTcc hit T on turn GG me
should i won this hand i would be 1-2 chipstack @FT with like 2-3 shorties <10bb and 2,3k$ for first

Honestly, I'd just 3Bet shove here preflop and let him decide. If he has his top 2% tough luck, but if he has his other 14,5% (I gave him a starting range of 16,5%) he's most likely folding, or we're slightly behind the times we get called. I don't mind calling but I'd have to have some reads/notes/stats from UTG to really know if I can play my hand profitably against him postflop. If I know for a fact that I can't, then I 3Bet shove.

As played I have to donkbet/call shove. I'm not happy about it but I don't think we can afford to give off a free card here. I don't think we can be happy with a turn that comes up as a T,J or A as any of those cards significantly decreases the range of hands we beat. A would put us into even more trouble so I think we should defend here and hope we get it in good or pick up the pot right away.

in vacum I agree that shoving is best line here
BUT
giveing icm, and HERO position (considering stack sizes) + HERO skill edge i dont think that it would be best to shove and flip for variance and go with your hand preflop in that spot when there were a lot of weak spots left

and cos folding is kinda week and 3beting folding is bad(i dont like 3bet caling from same reasons that i dont like shoving) i think flat pre is best (u can also give arguments for folding too)

and on this flop is very ugly spot

i think most of the time checking here will be better the leading (keeping pot small, with intention to bet on most turns if villain check behind) but when villain Cbets its realy ugly we can shove or call and shove any non :diamond:/A turn and imo both plays would be ok with me preferring to shove now

About ICM, I don't think this is a relevant factor yet, while at the same time it adds to our fold equity.

I would tend to agree with u more about postflop if stacks were deeper. However with 10bb (including antes) effective stack I really don't see much point in trying to pot control postflop, as if we'll want to get to showdown, it's more than likely we'll have to get in all of our chips for that anyway. Even if we do not invest all our chips postflop and lose, we'll take a considerable hit as it's very unlikely we'll get to showdown by checking. That said, I prefer to 3Bet shove, or donkbet/shove.

We maybe not got to consider ICM factor - but you have to consider future situations and our edge - thats what rebuz means imho - just that do we really want to get it in on a flip (which I agree with)

And i mean if you are saying we aren't bothered about losing chips (cos you are all for shoving pre) then why you then want to protect our hand so bad on flop? I mean i think we all agree we can't really get stacks in for value on this hand but we likely have the best hand and just want to scoop the pot.

So we need imo to just look at what maximises value from his bluff range (that we also lose if we donkbet). Like by checking we just let him make mistakes such as betting JcJh or something.

If we ch/shove he might think he gets odds on AdQ or something so I prefer to just call and donk shove turn. I mean if diamond comes it's an easy fold for us just because we are dead if he got it but tbh even if it comes I suspect it might go ch/ch sometimes I don't think he will bluff that often cos of FT bubble etc- and we are also probs gnna get two streets of value on brick runouts vs like TT/JJ/QQ

Originally posted by amplifyd
We maybe not got to consider ICM factor - but you have to consider future situations and our edge - thats what rebuz means imho - just that do we really want to get it in on a flip (which I agree with)

And i mean if you are saying we aren't bothered about losing chips (cos you are all for shoving pre) then why you then want to protect our hand so bad on flop? I mean i think we all agree we can't really get stacks in for value on this hand but we likely have the best hand and just want to scoop the pot.

So we need imo to just look at what maximises value from his bluff range (that we also lose if we donkbet). Like by checking we just let him make mistakes such as betting JcJh or something.

If we ch/shove he might think he gets odds on AdQ or something so I prefer to just call and donk shove turn. I mean if diamond comes it's an easy fold for us just because we are dead if he got it but tbh even if it comes I suspect it might go ch/ch sometimes I don't think he will bluff that often cos of FT bubble etc- and we are also probs gnna get two streets of value on brick runouts vs like TT/JJ/QQ

Yeah if we know villain has a bluff range that all looks very good. However we haven't got much of an idea about villains range. There's no stats, no reads, no notes ... considering all that I prefer not to call preflop potentially playing a weak made hand out of position. At the same time I find it unlikely villain would be raising only his top 2%. I attributed the villain with a 16,5% range and that looks a bit generous. However I would expect villain to fold his AK hands at least some of the time and I always expect UT to fold hands like ATs,AJs,AJo,AQo,AQs,77-99 maybe even TT, when we 3Bet shove preflop. This seems reasonable to me due to added fold equity (FT bubble always makes people more apprehensive compared to other bubbles) and the fact that UT doesn't lose much of his stack when he folds to our 3Bet shove.

I prefer to bet because to me it looks weaker. I would like to think we would be under representing our hand here and our bet could be better interpreted as a flush draw or maybe 2nd pair type hand. Depending on villains tendencies/hand strenght we stand a good chance of picking up the pot or getting it in even better than we would when we check/call, shove good turn. I have to admit though, the check/shove flop line is also very appealing and I may have disregarded it too quickly.

Hi all,

Ship preflop. He made it 3bb. If he made it 2bb with a tighter range I think calling preflop is an option. As played the pot's too big to try hit top pairs.

Postflop I'm +1 for c/rai. He has to call it off here with A :diamond:+x hands (which are flipping so we don't want that actually) but we can make him "incorrectly" fold <Q :diamond:+x hands and call off worse Kx.

I agree that shoving should be default in that spot

but in this specific spot i dont like it cos villain was donk i dont think i have any FEQ, rest of field was weak and i have very good stack to play with so no need to go for bigger variance line here
so I really prefer and think that call is best play here

flop is kinda ugly i dont like donking and caillng off
and as played i dont know what is better do we c/rai or call shove save turn

@atoks about taking pot control i meant that if flop goes check check we can make better decisions on later streets and loose smaler % of our stack if we r crushed and still be in with smth like 8-10bb stack

I think we pass up too much EV with that mentality. It does depend somewhat on just how bad our opponents are, but really it's tough for them to be bad enough to justify changing our plays so significantly, IMO.