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ICM help needed - Tourney final table situation

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mancikaa
Joined: 06.01.2010

Hey everyone, I would like to ask for help from someone who is familiar with ICM situations and could help me to find out about the following situation whats the right move? i tried to explain every detail with my reads and what i aim for.

Tournament is a live tourney, starting stak is 50.000 chips, blind levels are 10 minutes (extremly fast, final table average is like 5bb). 150 people played, chips in play 7,500,000. Payout starts from 19th place, and we reached the final table, last 9 people.

Pricepool is 4750 euro, 19 place pays, payout looks like this for the final table:

1th 1250 euro
2nd 800 euro
3rd 450 euro
4th 340 euro
5th 290 euro
6th 250 euro
7th 220 euro
8th 150 euro
9th 130 euro

Situation 1 (first hand of the final table):

Blinds: 80,000/160,000/20,000 ante

Hero (SB) ($570,000)
BB ($1,840,000)
UTG ($1,470,000)
UTG2 ($970,000)
MP1($470,000)
MP2($170,000)
HI($770,000)
CO ($570,000)
BU ($250,000)

Dealt to Hero A :spade: K :club:

fold, fold, MP1 raises to $500,000 (AI), fold, fold, fold, fold, Small blind???

I know that the situations are rare when its worth to fold AK since its the top of the range, but if we leave trough this than we will have the button, and can wait one more round and hope that the other short stacks will fall out inbetween. I have no information about the player in all in, the BB is a medicore player with TAG tendencies, so he wont call with worse than 10% of his range. Can this be folded to aim for a better payout or have to concfront the MP1 all-in and hope to win it? Im not reaching to win the first price, but would be happy with top 5. The whole structure is such a gamble that people even reach the final table with 1bb as you see, so every chip worth xtra much immo.
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Situation 2:

Blinds: 100,000/200,000/30,000 ante

Hero (BU) ($540,000)
SB ($1,710,000)
BB ($1,240,000)
UTG1 ($940,000)
UTG2($860,000)
MP1($140,000)
MP2($740,000)
HI ($540,000)
CU ($220,000)

Dealt to Hero 7 :diamond: 7 :heart:

fold, UTG2 raises to $860,000 (AI), fold, fold, fold, fold, Button???

The situation changed the following: we are at the second hand of the final table, the MP1 in the previsous hand went all in and won the blinds+antes, the blind increased inbetween, and he open shoves again from UTG2. He is a young guy, probably aweare of how to play this fast structure, and we see now that he is dare to fight for every chip with an all in. But we still have the button, so we still can wait that maybe the two big stack in the blind kicks him out, or the other short staks fall out till we are the blind again. SB and BB are medicore players playing like 10-15% of their range, BB is a bit tighter than SB but has some sort of cards rush since an hour, that made his stack so big.


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8 replies
TheRebuz
Joined: 12.10.2008

snap call AK
snap call 77 too
AINEC

pay jumps r not that big to consider icm and laddering and stacks r very swawow so u shoudnt fold nay +ev spot wit your stack size


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mancikaa Topic starter
mancikaa
Joined: 06.01.2010

Thanks, sounds fair, did u maybe check with some tool or just wrote down? (unfortunaetly i dont have a software to check)

Because, the only thing why im even questioning it, is that obv i would push any of these hands if its fold around, but i dont rly like to call for example w a pair of 77. (altho i did, and was insta out, cuz the SB woke up with pair of 10 , BB with KK, the original pusher had just some trash 7high)


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This is a type of situation where the usual MTT advice to aim for first place is far from correct, and it's a great idea to use some software to see what the ICM says.

My program ICM Explorer currently only uses preset prize structures, but I may change that in the next registered version. So, you can't simply use the "Call Push?" button to see how much equity you need to call according to the ICM. I'll use the ICM button and will compute the risk versus reward manually for the first decision.

The stacks you gave only add up to 7,500,000 if they are after posting the blinds and antes. So, that's the assumption I will make.

Fold (5,700,000): {.076, .0841, .0941, .1065, .1219, .1408, .1599, .1436, .073} -> €377.59
Win (1,460,000): {.1947, .1892, .1793, .1619, .1332, .0911, .0416, .0091, 0} -> €602.39
Lose (180,000): {0.024, 0.0283, 0.0343, 0.0433, 0.0583, 0.0861, 0.1473, 0.2422, 0.3363} -> €233.68

Calling appears to be right if your equity is greater than risk/(risk+reward) = (€377.59-€233.68)/(€602.39-€233.68) = 39%.

This 39% should be compared with the 30% you would need if the value of chips were linear. That 9% is a substantial risk-premium. In a STT with the same stacks, your risk premium would be more like 3%. Nevertheless, AKo has way more equity against the range of an aggressive pusher. You would need to think the short stack who pushed has a premium hand for AKo to have under 39% equity.

You should consider possible calls or overcalls behind you. Both possibilities improve folding relative to calling, so the actual equity you need to call correctly might be more like 44% instead of 39%.

It might help to recognize that even if you limp into 4th place, this should be a disappointing result. So, even though you see some short stacks in front of you who may get ground up by the blinds, outlasting those short stacks is only supposed to be a small part of your equity.


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mancikaa Topic starter
mancikaa
Joined: 06.01.2010

Originally posted by pzhon
This is a type of situation where the usual MTT advice to aim for first place is far from correct, and it's a great idea to use some software to see what the ICM says.

My program ICM Explorer currently only uses preset prize structures, but I may change that in the next registered version. So, you can't simply use the "Call Push?" button to see how much equity you need to call according to the ICM. I'll use the ICM button and will compute the risk versus reward manually for the first decision.

The stacks you gave only add up to 7,500,000 if they are after posting the blinds and antes. So, that's the assumption I will make.

Fold (5,700,000): {.076, .0841, .0941, .1065, .1219, .1408, .1599, .1436, .073} -> €377.59
Win (1,460,000): {.1947, .1892, .1793, .1619, .1332, .0911, .0416, .0091, 0} -> €602.39
Lose (180,000): {0.024, 0.0283, 0.0343, 0.0433, 0.0583, 0.0861, 0.1473, 0.2422, 0.3363} -> €233.68

Calling appears to be right if your equity is greater than risk/(risk+reward) = (€377.59-€233.68)/(€602.39-€233.68) = 39%.

This 39% should be compared with the 30% you would need if the value of chips were linear. That 9% is a substantial risk-premium. In a STT with the same stacks, your risk premium would be more like 3%. Nevertheless, AKo has way more equity against the range of an aggressive pusher. You would need to think the short stack who pushed has a premium hand for AKo to have under 39% equity.

You should consider possible calls or overcalls behind you. Both possibilities improve folding relative to calling, so the actual equity you need to call correctly might be more like 44% instead of 39%.

It might help to recognize that even if you limp into 4th place, this should be a disappointing result. So, even though you see some short stacks in front of you who may get ground up by the blinds, outlasting those short stacks is only supposed to be a small part of your equity.

Thanks a lot, i was looking for something like this!!

Its so hard to find out when one sits there if its worth to go all in every hand or wait till the others kill each other, because usually if you reach the top 5, people used to agree on a chop anyways, and mostly not by chip count, but that every one gets equal from the pricepool left. Im not a nit, since to make it to the final table i have to steal shamelessly before the bubble, but than once i reach the final table than i want to think it over what kind of money i would be happy. Some ppl rly just fold themself to the final table with 1bb, or even just with 1 ante :f_mad: this is very annoying. And some other factors are also in picture for me, like how many points i get at the end (the club has a monthly and yearly leaderboard which is based on the points each player collects on the tourney finishes, obv the better place gets better point. But not this is the main factor of course).

The stacks were as u said, blinds and ates are posted. But interesting what you say, with folding i still earn ok money. But yeah, with the AK its obv a push than. Guess from what you mention, "You should consider possible calls or overcalls behind you. Both possibilities improve folding relative to calling" would make a bigger part in the decision of the second hand.

I was a bit pissed of myself, because i folded the AK hoping that i have time, but than with the 77 i knew i have to go with, unfortunaetly this seemd to be the wrong pick.

Will check the software u linked, thanks a lot!


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JohnTheGreatest
Joined: 28.01.2010

Not a live game pro , but I'd snap call AK and fold 77 (though I call with 99+ AQ+ here on 2nd situation, esp.seeing how aggro this young gun seems to be)

GL, crushing live games! ;)


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mancikaa Topic starter
mancikaa
Joined: 06.01.2010

Originally posted by miljonszalie
GL, crushing live games! ;)

thanks :)


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Tiltberger
Joined: 23.06.2005

Originally posted by pzhon
This is a type of situation where the usual MTT advice to aim for first place is far from correct, and it's a great idea to use some software to see what the ICM says.

My program ICM Explorer currently only uses preset prize structures, but I may change that in the next registered version. So, you can't simply use the "Call Push?" button to see how much equity you need to call according to the ICM. I'll use the ICM button and will compute the risk versus reward manually for the first decision.

The stacks you gave only add up to 7,500,000 if they are after posting the blinds and antes. So, that's the assumption I will make.

Fold (5,700,000): {.076, .0841, .0941, .1065, .1219, .1408, .1599, .1436, .073} -> €377.59
Win (1,460,000): {.1947, .1892, .1793, .1619, .1332, .0911, .0416, .0091, 0} -> €602.39
Lose (180,000): {0.024, 0.0283, 0.0343, 0.0433, 0.0583, 0.0861, 0.1473, 0.2422, 0.3363} -> €233.68

Calling appears to be right if your equity is greater than risk/(risk+reward) = (€377.59-€233.68)/(€602.39-€233.68) = 39%.

This 39% should be compared with the 30% you would need if the value of chips were linear. That 9% is a substantial risk-premium. In a STT with the same stacks, your risk premium would be more like 3%. Nevertheless, AKo has way more equity against the range of an aggressive pusher. You would need to think the short stack who pushed has a premium hand for AKo to have under 39% equity.

You should consider possible calls or overcalls behind you. Both possibilities improve folding relative to calling, so the actual equity you need to call correctly might be more like 44% instead of 39%.

It might help to recognize that even if you limp into 4th place, this should be a disappointing result. So, even though you see some short stacks in front of you who may get ground up by the blinds, outlasting those short stacks is only supposed to be a small part of your equity.

vnh, thank you very much!


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Hi there,

I'm in the same situation as OP, regarding wanting to analyse decisions made during end game live poker. I've d/led ICM Explorer and tried to work my way through OPs first hand to get the same results as Phzon. I can't, for the life of me, get the same equity results and I really want to analyse a hand of my own but feel that it's worthless unless I know I'm getting the correct answers.

Phzon, if you could give up just 5 minutes of your time to show me how you got those results or just to work through an example of my own via Skype or Teamviewer, I'd happily ship you some cash when I win my first live tournament :f_biggrin:!

Skype is JacksonJack7 if your so kind :f_love:


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