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$109 6mx QJo vs reg

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Tim64
Joined: 03.11.2008

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $40(BB) Replayer
SB ($1,760)
BB ($2,000)
UTG ($2,000)
UTG+1 ($2,280)
Hero ($2,020)
BTN ($1,940)

Dealt to Hero Q♦ J♠

fold, fold, Hero raises to $80, fold, fold, BB calls $40

FLOP ($180) T♣ 9♦ 5♦

BB checks, Hero bets $120, BB calls $120

TURN ($420) T♣ 9♦ 5♦ 7♣

BB bets $240, Hero calls $240

RIVER ($900) T♣ 9♦ 5♦ 7♣ 2♦

BB bets $400, Hero folds

BB wins $900

17/13, 4.4 agg., 840 hs; Good reg though I don't have roi for him.

I think bottom of his range is my hand. When he check/c flop and leads turn i think most likely hands are AKs, TT/99, JJ and QQ (though only 3 combos). Assume he 3b KK/AA mostly, though perhaps slowplays from time to time. Also AdKd prolly ch/R flop a decent amount so we can discount.

I'm happy with my play up to riv. Turn play is close, but if he has a set, he is not getting away on riv and ocasionally our overcards will be good. (I think calling more than 300-320 would not be good - do you agree?). I think raising turn is probably bad since he may ship any of the above hands.

Main qn is the riv. His bet sizing looks to me like classic thin value size. I think he would always bet more with a flush. But, although we can rep a flush ourselves the way the hand ran out, when I bet this size it's normally with the intention of sigh-calling so I don't know if we should ever consider bluff shoving here vs a reg. Feel like that might be just playing into his hands.

thoughts?
thanks


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12 replies
PetChoveka
Joined: 14.02.2010

i fold the turn. Most of the cards that improve our hand complete draws and i think he often has smthin like pair+draw so that decreases our chances of making nuts and gives us some reverse implied odds.

I fold the river too.

, but if he has a set, he is not getting away on riv

Also some draws missed too and he can level himself to call u with weaker hands and also he can have the nuts here.


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such a weird line. i hate when people do this. really confuses me. i find its mostly for value or a strong semi-bluff/call line.

holding the Qd reduces his semi-bluffs and i agree that AdKd would c/r flop usually. so im more confident that the 8d and Kd are clean outs. hitting a pair might be an out a small % of the time but im not sure if villain will just shut down on those hands. i think calling for half pot on the turn is fine, any more and im folding. dont bluff the river, we can rep some flushes, but none that would raise the river.


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Tim64
Joined: 03.11.2008

Ty, sir. I also hate it when they do this. Makes me consider spazzing on river... :facepalm:


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i really need to think about adding this line into my game. the problem is figuring out whether I need to be doing it for value or as a bluff.. that im not sure of haha.

maybe ill get chenny to chime in with his opinion


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Tim64
Joined: 03.11.2008

I've always thought of it as kind of valuey. As in "I have a good hand but checkraising flop just looks too strong. But I don't want you to check b/h Turn and hit your draw for free, so I will lead turn instead." But if so, then doing it with a draw or bluff might be good...


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chenny8888
Joined: 03.10.2007

Hi all,

I think he has one pair or 2pair far more often than some semi-bluff on the turn. I really dislike this line with any semi-bluff, think about it this way: with a semi-bluff you'd much prefer to check/raise (make opponent fold made hands) or have the turn go check/check (get a free card) than bet and have to fold to a raise. Bet/getting it in with no fold equity is going to rarely be a good play as you simply don't have the equity to take this line with so many pot size bets behind.

Seeing as how I'm discounting all his draws, my play on the turn in position would be to call most of my flushdraws, even A :diamond:K :diamond: (i may fold some of the bad diamond flushdraws, definitely calling any club flushdraws) as well as my good open enders/double gutshots like KJ and QJ, with the intention of getting paid! when I hit a straight (he's going to read us for a flushdraw a bunch when we do) and getting him to fold when a flush card hits. So when villain blockbets this river for this size, I ship on him.


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thanks for your opinion chenny.


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we discuss the merits of villain's line below

[1:25:50 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: so do you think its a good line with anything?
[1:25:54 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: or would you rather c/c flop c/r turn
[1:26:02 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: no it's fine with AT type hands
[1:26:11 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: even worse tens, wait let me recheck hand
[1:26:29 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: ya any ten really, can do it with nutted hands to balance too
[1:26:34 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: bad to do with draws tho
[1:26:43 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh
[1:26:49 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: were still deep enough to bet/3bet the turn though
[1:27:02 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: right
[1:27:06 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: but when people raise on this turn card
[1:27:12 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: their sizing will normally commit them
[1:27:16 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh true
[1:27:17 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: given this board texture
[1:27:40 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: so with Ad8d whats your line?
[1:27:48 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: 1560 remaining pot will be 900 before any raises
[1:27:50 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: pick up oesd on turn
[1:27:51 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: call
[1:27:57 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: no in villain shoes
[1:27:59 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: not hero
[1:28:01 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: ah
[1:28:01 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: check
[1:28:05 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: c/r/c ?
[1:28:05 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: try to check/ship
[1:28:10 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: c/overbet ?
[1:28:36 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: well ia lways say try, lets say if CO bets 280 here after we check we obv can't check/ship
[1:28:46 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: but we can make it 800 and commit ourselves anyway
[1:30:14 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh exactly
[1:30:28 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: thats what i mean its virtually the same as check/shipping
[1:30:32 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: but not so obvious that we are drawing
[1:30:32 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: right
[1:30:35 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: yea
[1:30:35 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: kk nice
[1:30:36 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: np
[1:31:08 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: and u think here
[1:31:12 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: hero should ship river vs this size
[1:31:27 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: we rep 2 combos ...
[1:31:33 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: !!
[1:31:40 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: count plz
[1:31:47 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: well not 2 combos
[1:31:50 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: but 2 hands
[1:31:53 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: A high flush or K high flush
[1:31:54 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: we rep flush nicely
[1:31:59 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: ah well if you have problems there
[1:32:04 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: then it's easy
[1:32:05 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh but we never raise river with Q high flush
[1:32:11 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: when u see villain blockbetting river for 400 into 900
[1:32:16 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: shove ur 4 high flushes
[1:32:28 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: as a bluff ?
[1:32:28 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: haha
[1:32:29 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: for value
[1:32:41 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: it's a simple issue really
[1:32:48 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: lets say board runs out TTT32 and u have Tx
[1:32:51 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: and villain c/r u on the river
[1:32:55 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: you CAN just call
[1:32:59 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: it's viable
[1:33:05 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: i mean fuck he's never paying u off right?
[1:33:08 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: but u should probably still raise
[1:33:14 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: so with a 4 high flush
[1:33:21 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: if his betsizing is that obviously not a higher flush
[1:33:26 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: u CAN just call, but u got the nuts
[1:33:29 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: so u might as well raise
[1:33:49 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh i see
[1:33:54 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: cause u know u got the best hand
[1:33:57 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: even if he cant call
[1:33:57 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: yes
[1:33:59 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: yes
[1:34:01 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh i see
[1:34:06 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: and then u make money when he level himself into calling
[1:34:10 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: or when he folds to ur QJ
[1:34:11 PM] chenny8888/hav0c:
[1:34:11 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: game theory wise
[1:34:14 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: seems pretty bad though lol
[1:34:21 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: right
[1:34:21 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh i guess all it takes is 1 bad call
[1:34:28 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: correct
[1:34:34 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: u gotta stop when he starts adjusting
[1:34:38 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: by having higher flushes in his range
[1:34:48 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: but it's so hard for him to have a higher flush on this board texture given this action and betsizing
[1:34:56 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh indeed
[1:34:58 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: i agree
[1:35:14 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: soooo. do u think bluffing river is a good option ?
[1:35:20 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: given villains range mostly cant call
[1:35:27 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: yea
[1:35:32 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: cause he cant bet/call a set here
[1:35:37 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: he should be
[1:35:41 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: but yeah maybe he doesn't
[1:35:46 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: if he doesn't b/c sets then it's easy
[1:36:08 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh
[1:36:14 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: cool spot
[1:36:17 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: yep
[1:36:20 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: these boards usually are
[1:36:26 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: u mind if i post chat in thread?
[1:36:53 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: yea go ahead
[1:36:56 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: i wanted to add
[1:37:06 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: that we should keep in mind that sng players don't necessarily think like i do
[1:37:12 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeah definitely
[1:37:21 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: like no one bet/calls a set here
[1:37:32 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: cause no one else is capable of bluff shipping this river in a stt
[1:37:33 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: right and i'm sure some people think it's a good line with semibluffs
[1:37:34 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: no one
[1:37:48 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: until villain raises u on the turn and u gotta fold
[1:37:52 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh thats what my mind went to immidiately
[1:37:55 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: cause thats what i usually see
[1:37:58 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: but ur reasoning makes compelte sense
[1:38:34 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: whats your river line with AT in villains spot? value bet ?
[1:38:52 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh looks like a must bet
[1:39:01 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: QT would be hard on the river though
[1:39:01 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: i think most people blockbet there
[1:39:13 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh i agree
[1:39:16 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: but is that necessarily good?
[1:39:17 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: i don't like it as much though
[1:39:20 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: nah
[1:39:24 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: ppl just have problems check/folding hands
[1:39:35 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh
[1:39:40 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: like blockbet looks exploitable vs most regs
[1:39:43 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: because they know its weak
[1:39:47 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: so they just bluff ship
[1:39:48 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: QT is obv check/fold here even the turn is really thin
[1:39:52 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: block bet to induce looks sexy
[1:39:54 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: nah it's not that so much
[1:40:05 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: block bet w/ QT doesn't make any sense
[1:40:10 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: cause u don't get called by worse
[1:40:14 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: that's the most important part
[1:40:44 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: seems so hard to balance
[1:40:45 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: so u wanna check and river goes check/check u win against 98, JT, T8, 78 etc
[1:40:50 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: only non nutted combos we have is KT/AT
[1:41:10 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: but u want to bet big w/ nut comboes for value from Tx
[1:41:22 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: and so u can bluff missed clubs, QJ etc
[1:41:47 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: honestly i just don't lead turn
[1:41:50 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: but didnt u say to c/r QJ/clubs on the turn?
[1:41:54 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: neither do i
[1:41:57 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: but got me thinking
[1:41:59 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: maybe i should
[1:42:06 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: but the line is just confusing as fuck
[1:42:11 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: like i got no idea what im doing
[1:42:17 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: probably not, u don't get that much action anyway from the hands that check back turn
[1:42:20 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: what im trying to achieve
[1:42:39 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: well in a pure theoretical point of view
[1:42:57 PM | Edited 1:43:10 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: the reason u lead the turn is to protect against gutshot type hands that ALSO: do not bluff if they miss, do not bet if u check
[1:43:22 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: mhmm
[1:43:31 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: soooo how can you bet river then?
[1:43:40 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: wouldnt c/induce be better ?
[1:43:51 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: guess u cant check with ur nuts on the river though
[1:43:57 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: haha fuck this line seriously
[1:44:02 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: hurts my brain
[1:44:37 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: nah check/induce not better
[1:44:45 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: cause ur just giving free cards with a vulnerable hand
[1:44:48 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: that isn't getting paid off on the river anyway
[1:44:51 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: i mean on the river
[1:44:54 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: when it bricks
[1:45:02 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: oh because that's just part of his range
[1:45:07 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: other parts of his range are Tx
[1:45:15 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: ok
[1:45:21 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: man
[1:45:28 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: and the idea behind leading
[1:45:28 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: looks like blockbet with everything is nice
[1:45:29 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: is that he folds his gutshots
[1:45:35 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: KQ type hands
[1:45:40 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: AJ
[1:46:05 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: guess u can balance river blockbet size with everything, trying to induce his missed draws
[1:46:18 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: right
[1:46:20 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: u can do that for sure
[1:46:21 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: but:
[1:46:28 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: a big part of his range hits the river
[1:46:35 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yep flushes true
[1:46:43 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: secondly, he has a lot of made hands that u miss vlaue from if u bet small
[1:46:49 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh
[1:46:55 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: and STT players in general not spewy on rivers
[1:47:27 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: i just like to think of it as:
[1:47:29 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: what would phil ivey do
[1:47:33 PM] chenny8888/hav0c:
[1:47:35 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: haha
[1:47:43 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: dude phil ivey takes this line
[1:47:46 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: what do you do on the turn when you lead 2nd set
[1:47:47 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: and villain raises
[1:47:52 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: board runs out 9529 he checks back turn with 2 PSB behind
[1:48:00 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: river bricks and villain bets
[1:48:01 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: he ships
[1:48:19 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: ur just like WHAT THE FUUUUCK, against any bad reg u snap!
[1:48:52 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: but phil ivey knows whether you're more inclined to call or fold there
[1:49:02 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: and fuckn balances accordingly
[1:49:10 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: oO
[1:49:14 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: mindfuck
[1:49:16 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: if i led 2nd set i'd be shipping
[1:49:20 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: cause any raise commits
[1:49:35 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: but what part of villains turn raising range do you beat ?
[1:49:43 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: w/ 2nd set?
[1:49:45 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh
[1:49:48 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: i'm sure lots of people raise QdJd there
[1:49:48 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: QcJc
[1:49:55 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: mhmm
[1:49:56 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: i mean i probably don't
[1:49:58 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: 3rd set/4th set
[1:49:59 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: in position
[1:50:06 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: ok so we assume 55
[1:50:12 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: cause c/c flop w/ 77 is pretty bad vs that sizing
[1:50:25 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: we lead villain raises and our equity's still pretty good
[1:50:26 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yes true
[1:50:33 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: i'll stove it
[1:50:41 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh ur right
[1:50:47 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: so many 2 overs + draws in villain range
[1:50:53 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: so yeh its lead/ship
[1:51:01 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: same with AT i guess
[1:51:04 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: ?
[1:51:18 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: yea can't fold 55
[1:51:19 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: Board: Td 9c 7c 5d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.955% 32.95% 00.00% 435 0.00 { 55 }
Hand 1: 67.045% 67.05% 00.00% 885 0.00 { TT-99, AdKd, AdQd, KdQd, QdJd }
[1:51:29 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: not srue with 77
[1:51:31 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: sry
[1:51:32 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: AT
[1:51:40 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: depends
[1:52:07 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: cause villain has overcard outs
[1:52:41 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: well it just depends on what u think his range is
[1:52:49 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: cause u gotta assume if V raises turn he's not folding
[1:52:55 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh ofc
[1:53:02 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: if u include any worse Tx in the range, and they shouldn't exist, then u can't fold
[1:53:10 PM] chenny8888/hav0c: if u don't then it's a lead/fold
[1:53:14 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: probably not though
[1:53:14 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: yeh
[1:53:19 PM] <3 lessthanthreee/cjbridle1: ok think iget it now


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Tim64
Joined: 03.11.2008

Thanks for this, all - value added! It's great when you guys get 'to the bottom' of a hand like this. Makes for happy posters :)


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yeh sorry for the TLDR.. think its worth posting though. you can see our thought process when evaluating these spots


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Gavron23
Joined: 26.05.2010

Awesome :f_love:

I have one question about the part with shoving 4high flushes over blockbet on the river. Isnt it possible for him to bet small with a nutted hand here (say Ad8d) in order to induce a cry call from some 2pair Tx type of hands and in the same time give us the chance to think his range is capped, and with this level us into shoving as a bluff (or for value with a weaker hand)?

EDIT:
my thinking is probably flawed (and way behind obv.) but in villain's shoes
how much would you bet OTR with J or K high Flush?


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our thinking is that villain always bets > half pot with those hands because hero's line looks relatively strong. so we know with any flush we are ahead, so we raise for value (even if he cant call).

its only after villain adjusts and starts merging his river size with his flushes that we have to re-adjust


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