call 20 rule

Imo.. fold a set, the only way to get value from a set is if the other player has you crushed. -EV to play sets for value, just check/fold.

firstly u shouldn't call with low PP's OOP

Hi joeldowey123,

I'm sorry but I don't understand your question completely.

The Call20 rule is good, it works! You won't always get paid off when you hit a set. If you would you could call at 10:1 odds.

When it comes to postflop I can't really suggest anything because there are too many factors to weigh, like you also mentioned. Just bet big against passive players, that's the best general advice I can give.

Cheers,
Manu.

calling OOP with a low pp is fine so long as you have confidence that if you call it induces others behind you to call as well. If you miss your set then its an easy check fold, if you hit then you potentially can double your stack.

If its been folded to you then don't just call, if you really wanna play it then reraise representing something better than a small pp, if you get called then your set is very well hidden because they will be putting you on AK, or a high pair. Often times the initial raiser will just fold to your reraise if they have something like J10, KJ, QJ, K10, even AJ and AQ might fold depending on the player.

Of course you cant do this to often or else you will just be raised back pre flop and have to fold.

thanks for your answer darkpenance0 and Emanual

What my initial question was this

If villain (100bb) raises to 4x pre and i call to set mine, how much more needs to go into pot for it to be +EV for my pre flop call, or has he given me the odds already pre flop?

Originally posted by joeldowey123
thanks for your answer darkpenance0 and Emanual

What my initial question was this

If villain (100bb) raises to 4x pre and i call to set mine, how much more needs to go into pot for it to be +EV for my pre flop call, or has he given me the odds already pre flop?

You hit a set about once every 10 times, so if you get 10x more into the pot you are already +EV. The 20x rule is because you will often fold incorrectly against your opponent's specific hand (but correctly against his range) and need to make up for it with implied odds when you flop your hand.

Originally posted by EmanuelC16

Originally posted by joeldowey123
thanks for your answer darkpenance0 and Emanual

What my initial question was this

If villain (100bb) raises to 4x pre and i call to set mine, how much more needs to go into pot for it to be +EV for my pre flop call, or has he given me the odds already pre flop?

You hit a set about once every 10 times, so if you get 10x more into the pot you are already +EV. The 20x rule is because you will often fold incorrectly against your opponent's specific hand (but correctly against his range) and need to make up for it with implied odds when you flop your hand.

The numbers are wrong !!! if u have a pocketpair preflop u flop a set 1 out of 8,5 and a set or better 1 out of 7,5 times and to the river even 1 out of 5. if u call vs agressive opponents u have to fold very often if u dont hit ur set, but its also easier to get value vs these players.
as darkpenance said if u are the preflopaggressor its easier to play cause even if u doesnt hit u can take the pot down with a contibet but u shouldnt 3 bet with small pp at nl2 to often cause they didnt fold that often to a 3 bet.

How is about 10% wrong when comparing to exactly 11.7%?

sorry that i said wrong but , i think its not good to say that there is only a10% chance of getting a set when u got 12,5% to flop a set or better and this is the important number and 1 out of 7,5 is a big different i think, especially because u forget to said on the flop cause to the river its 1 out of 5 and then it is a really big different right?
sorry for my bad english .

Actually, it's 11.7% of flopping a set or better. It's a number hard to remember as a beginner and as a person who doesn't base poker decisions on very fine maths.

The problem is also it doesn't account for set over set. Knowing you have about 10% is a very close, easy to remember estimate if you also take into account the set over set times, which are indeed rare, but happen and they are costly.

Didn't want to seem too mean but your '!!!' made it seems like screaming at 1.7% difference that doesn't account for the set not being the best hand.

Cheers.

thanks for clearing that up guys, much appreciated! ♠_cool:

Originally posted by EmanuelC16
if you also take into account the set over set times, which are indeed rare, but happen and they are costly.

Cheers.

I don't think you are correct with this part at all, set over set will happen indeed, but you have to know that it will happen an equal amount of times in your favor as it happens to the opponents favour. So you can count set over set out of this discussion!

And can you apply the call 20 rule only to the initial raiser or to other callers too. for example:

Hand Information
No Limit, 0.02 BB (9 handed).
Hand History converter courtesy of pokerhandreplays.com

Table Information
Seat: 1 Player 1 ($2.49)
Seat: 2 Player 2 ($2.06)
Seat: 3 Player 3 ($2.92)
Seat: 4 Player 4 ($0.49)
Seat: 5 Player 5 ($0.21)
Seat: 6 Player 6 ($3.47)
Seat: 7 Player 7 ($1.86) Dealer
Seat: 9 Player 9 ($1.47) Small Blind
Seat: 10 Hero ($2) Big Blind
Dealt to Hero
5♠: 5♥:

Preflop (Pot:0.03)
Player 1 FOLD
Player 2 FOLD
Player 3 CALL $0.02
Player 4 FOLD
Player 5 RAISE $0.08
Player 6 CALL $0.08
Player 7 FOLD
Player 9 FOLD
Hero FOLD
Player 3 FOLD

Flop(Pot: $0.21)
7♣: 9♠: 7♥:

Player 5 ALL-IN
Player 6 FOLD
Showdown:
Player 5 MUCKS

Player 5 wins the pot: $0.34

Player 5 has almost nothing left, but what about player 6? Of course player 6 has no initiative and will probably only play when he hits (possibly a higher set). Can you make the call even OOP?

Originally posted by variancekiller

Originally posted by EmanuelC16
if you also take into account the set over set times, which are indeed rare, but happen and they are costly.

Cheers.

I don't think you are correct with this part at all, set over set will happen indeed, but you have to know that it will happen an equal amount of times in your favor as it happens to the opponents favour. So you can count set over set out of this discussion!

An open raiser can have JJ+, you cannot usually when you just call. Maybe you have JJ sometimes but you will 3bet QQ+. It doesn't account for 1.7% that's certain, however there is also flopping set vs flush and vs straight, which again the open raiser has more of in his range in general. What actually matters is flopping a set and losing since the open raiser will usually have more sets, straights and flushes in his range than us. Again, it doesn't go to 1.7% of the time but you will usually lose all your stack in that situation because of inexperience and thought of 'set = nuts' so it is very costly.

If when calling to set mine you don't account for when your set is not good and costs you all your stack you will lose quite a lot of money..