[SH] NL 50 86s 3bet pot flop play

Hey man,

This seems like a very sexy hand. I think if villain has Ax on the river he will likely bet, however I imagine he'd bet turn for value as the board is relatively wet.

There are a bunch of draws thast missed and think river is a pretty easy call and thren make a note if he checks back Ax on the turn in a similar spot.

Pretty much disagree here.

On the Flop we can't valuebet so we have to choose between a bluff or a X/F. With our flopped pair and him being a reg (AK=broke pre) we have a clear flopbet we the intention of barreling the Turn.

As played it is very very likely he will bet his draws on the turn because he has a great chance to bluff at it and at the same time he's checking behind lots of aces because we can't call with a lot worse (we are barreling the draws). So X/F River as played.

Pleno, maybe you can give some arguments to prove me wrong?

@pleno
If you had AQ/AJs an you get 3bet then he bets then checks the turn IMO your checkin the turn back an callin a bet or making a bet. You can't bet turn an expect to get called by worse in this spot.

Nobody wants my x/r line on the flop? :(. I am thinking about splitting my ranges into betting and x/raising (so without a x/calling range)

Originally posted by DeMarcohsp
Nobody wants my x/r line on the flop? :(. I am thinking about splitting my ranges into betting and x/raising (so without a x/calling range)

Why would you do that? Sometimes X/C is simply better so I don't see any point in not having a X/C-range ever.

Because I think it's easy line to exploit by barreling like a mad man since nobody is slowplaying a set here

Originally posted by DeMarcohsp
Nobody wants my x/r line on the flop? :(. I am thinking about splitting my ranges into betting and x/raising (so without a x/calling range)

The problem with check-raising the flop against a thinking opponent is that a preflop 3bettor who checks an Axx board is generally not check-folding and most people know this. This is much more true on a drier Axx board. On A72r, for example, if you 3bet OOP and check the flop regs will know that you're not check-folding because it's a board texture that you would always cbet bluff. Your hand is perceived to be traps (AA, AK), weak Ax, and hands like TT-KK. People used to barrel off against that range facing a check but I don't find it to be very common anymore.

So if you're going to check-raise bluff as the PFR on Axx, I think you're likely to run into a stronger range of hands because villain is unlikely to stab random pairs or air knowing that you're not check-folding. An aware opponent knows that a 3bettor who checks Axx isn't check-folding and he should adjust his betting range appropriately by stabbing as a bluff less often.

Whether or not your lack of information on this villain (he could easily be a poor player who just autobets his entire range facing your check) combined with the fact that A87dd is one of the few Axx boards in which it is conceivable to check and give up makes you think that villain is likely to take stabs here and bet/fold often I'm not sure. My hunch is that I don't think a c/r on this board will work out very well. It's tough getting people to fold top pair in a 3bet pot and there's quite a lot of combinations of strong draws in his range that might ship over your check-raise or weaker draws that will float your check-raise and make life difficult on the turn or river.

I'd like to add that if you are perceived to c/f some Axx flop as pfr you prob fold turn as well so a delayed bluff will work quite often too if we put ourselves in villain's spot.

Good input guys!

Originally posted by Farmarchist
Pretty much disagree here.

On the Flop we can't valuebet so we have to choose between a bluff or a X/F. With our flopped pair and him being a reg (AK=broke pre) we have a clear flopbet we the intention of barreling the Turn.

As played it is very very likely he will bet his draws on the turn because he has a great chance to bluff at it and at the same time he's checking behind lots of aces because we can't call with a lot worse (we are barreling the draws). So X/F River as played.

Pleno, maybe you can give some arguments to prove me wrong?

Can someone answer this?

on flop we can't value bet so our options are
-turn into bluff
-c/c to bluff catch
-c/f cos it's too weak

you left out the option of c/c. But yes I think this hand is too weak to c/c and too strong to c/f with our pair. So that leaves us with the other 2 options of c/r bluff or bet as a bluff (or rather just betting to take down the pot). I think I probably just bet cos checking on ace high boards is just a really transparent play. Could c/r with bottom pair + backdoor flush draw on more coordinated boards, where we are perceived to be giving up really often and can expect villain to bluff flop a lot.

Don't like your plan to bet twice and give up because no one ever folds an Ace to 2 bets. so you should be 1 or 3 barreling.