a fold

Had you lost the raise button? And suddenly on the river the call button as well? I don't understand at all why you played it this way!

You misplayed that hand entirely. Why you didnt raise Preflop, why you didn't raise the Flop. What have you been afraid of? River is a clear call. You have an Overpair and SB might just barrel with 9x Qx. I don't get your play at all

this is super wierd. you've underplayed your hand on the early streets .. you have to at least call. but yea, i don't get why u never raised

wow im stunned at how you played this hand.. what is your reasoning for every single action you made ? first time i read it i thought you posted it from a fish's view. limping KK essentially check calling and folding on a completely harmless card.

raise preflop bet bet bet. how can you even think of limping KK and going totally passive. you would have lost less just folding preflop . badly misplayed. really badly. Im almost embaressed ..

I have played this way, except for the river fold, on purpose (maybe 2k hands), just for the sake of getting to know the fish mindset - as an experiment. I did it to find a counter strategy versus such players. But this fish emulation didn't include folding on the river with any sort of hand, and it did not really include playing that way multiway either.

If you are looking for a bizarre way to put people off, then consider this: On the button, with AA, if there one a raiser, just flatcall preflop. AA plays very well 3-way (whatever people say), so you waste very little EV (some dead money from the BB + 1.xx extra small bets from the raiser and the BB) before the flop. Then you'll regain most of it (plus maybe some more if you are lucky) by pure deception on the later streets (turn or river) by putting in a raise with a completely disguised hand.

This sort of play is not popular among the experts, but most people make plenty of highly related plays anyway. (The judges would have my tongue cut out for saying this ♦.) They flatcall AA, etc in the BB vs one raiser, exactly for the purpose of deception. The latter play is so much easier to "balance", meaning people can't find a counter strategy (very easily, at least) . But, anyway which you do it, you must somehow regain what you lose preflop by RAISING on a later street. On that board, well, I think you are still good enough, even on the river, for a raise.

/Johan =

Originally posted by YohanN7
I have played this way, except for the river fold, on purpose (maybe 2k hands), just for the sake of getting to know the fish mindset - as an experiment. I did it to find a counter strategy versus such players. But this fish emulation didn't include folding on the river with any sort of hand, and it did not really include playing that way multiway either.

If you are looking for a bizarre way to put people off, then consider this: On the button, with AA, if there one a raiser, just flatcall preflop. AA plays very well 3-way (whatever people say), so you waste very little EV (some dead money from the BB + 1.xx extra small bets from the raiser and the BB) before the flop. Then you'll regain most of it (plus maybe some more if you are lucky) by pure deception on the later streets (turn or river) by putting in a raise with a completely disguised hand.

This sort of play is not popular among the experts, but most people make plenty of highly related plays anyway. (The judges would have my tongue cut out for saying this ♦.) They flatcall AA, etc in the BB vs one raiser, exactly for the purpose of deception. The latter play is so much easier to "balance", meaning people can't find a counter strategy (very easily, at least) . But, anyway which you do it, you must somehow regain what you lose preflop by RAISING on a later street. On that board, well, I think you are still good enough, even on the river, for a raise.

/Johan =

Actually, most people that do that (I do it myself) do it to balance the entire range when playing vs observant opponents. It's the same reason why I never cap pf HU

never capping pf hu okay thats stupid

Also, doing it to "balance an entire range" sounds so much better than "slowplaying AA" :tongue:. It is still the same play. But it isn't the same as "not capping preflop", which usually means having position versus 1 3-bettor in the blinds. Making any of these plays with AA is, seen in isolation, probably a loser (it is donating 1-2 SB per opponent preflop), so that lost bets simply cannot be made up for later on in the same hand. The lost bets have to be made up for with other hands in the range later on.

/Johan =

Originally posted by YohanN7
Also, doing it to "balance an entire range" sounds so much better than "slowplaying AA" :tongue:. It is still the same play. But it isn't the same as "not capping preflop", which usually means having position versus 1 3-bettor in the blinds. Making any of these plays with AA is, seen in isolation, probably a loser (it is donating 1-2 SB per opponent preflop), so that lost bets simply cannot be made up for later on in the same hand. The lost bets have to be made up for with other hands in the range later on.

/Johan =

That's because you are taking the play in isolation with 1 hand rather than looking at how it affects your entire range.

Just flatting the BB means you overall flop range is stronger which means you can x/r for value more which, in turn, means you can also bluff more. This makes you a very dangerous opponent because you're going to be extremely aggressive post-flop which, no matter who you are, in late position battles in FLHE is tough to deal with.

When you 3-bet from the BB you narrow your range horribly. If you're against a LP raise can you 3-bet a balanced range without dropping a metric ton of equity, yeah I'm pretty sure you can, but vs a UTG or HJ open? No way.

So what we're doing is, instead of making things difficult for ourself by creating a situation where 85% of the time post flop we're going to end up OOP in a 3-bet pot on the turn (60% of the time without a pair) and often facing a raise in position we make it so that we have the ability to control the pot a little bit more

Also not capping OOP HU is totally standard, again dur to the problem that we narrow our range too much and even in position now it's becoming more common.

Regarding the hand, yes it's poorly played and I can't really add much to what's already been said

I play the same way, but I just don't think it is entirely obvious that having two ranges (one for calling, and one for 3-betting) is a gigantic loser. I can see the point when 3-betting in the big blind vs UTG for value only. It would become a thin range. Versus a loose button open there should be room for two ranges (at least as an experiment). Loose button openers are also the ones that often check back when I really want them to bet, taking a free card rather than giving one. They are the ones that decide when to take one off for free.

/Johan =

Originally posted by alexstunning
Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.04 Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K K
3 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, BTN calls, SB completes, BB checks

Flop: (4 SB) Q 9 7 (4 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero calls, BTN calls

Turn: (3.5 BB) 5 (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, BTN calls

River: (6.5 BB) 3 (3 players)
SB bets, 2 folds

Results:

Spoiler

6.5 BB pot (0.3 BB rake)
Final Board: Q 9 7 5 3
BTN mucked and lost (-2 BB net)
SB mucked and won 6.2 BB (4.2 BB net)
Hero mucked K K and lost (-2 BB net)

Sorry ru serious about learning the FL ? if yes than please post ur hands with ur thoughts why u played the way u played & reads about ur opponents & dont leave for others to make comments

The way u post ur hand & without any follow up ur not learning much & it will not improve ur game

Originally posted by YohanN7
Also, doing it to "balance an entire range" sounds so much better than "slowplaying AA"

No its sound more of a excuse of playing poker the way it should not be played

What we need to understand whatever extra BB we will make or save by playing such a way it will cost u more on a longer term which we need to realise

Originally posted by sim5sim5

Originally posted by YohanN7
Also, doing it to "balance an entire range" sounds so much better than "slowplaying AA"

No its sound more of a excuse of playing poker the way it should not be played

What we need to understand whatever extra BB we will make or save by playing such a way it will cost u more on a longer term which we need to realise

I don't understand what you mean by that. You are saying that non-capping HU is -EV? Or the opposite?

Originally posted by YohanN7
On the button, with AA, if there one a raiser, just flatcall preflop. AA plays very well 3-way (whatever people say), so you waste very little EV (some dead money from the BB + 1.xx extra small bets from the raiser and the BB) before the flop. Then you'll regain most of it (plus maybe some more if you are lucky) by pure deception on the later streets (turn or river) by putting in a raise with a completely disguised hand.

This sort of play is not popular among the experts, but most people make plenty of highly related plays anyway. (The judges would have my tongue cut out for saying this ♦.) They flatcall AA, etc in the BB vs one raiser, exactly for the purpose of deception. The latter play is so much easier to "balance", meaning people can't find a counter strategy (very easily, at least) . But, anyway which you do it, you must somehow regain what you lose preflop by RAISING on a later street. On that board, well, I think you are still good enough, even on the river, for a raise.

/Johan =

Well it looks good when u will make that extra BB from what u called deception by rasing turn/river but what u will lose is something u need to understand which u will realise making that a more of a -EV on a longer term

Originally posted by JLeitmotiv

Originally posted by sim5sim5

Originally posted by YohanN7
Also, doing it to "balance an entire range" sounds so much better than "slowplaying AA"

No its sound more of a excuse of playing poker the way it should not be played

What we need to understand whatever extra BB we will make or save by playing such a way it will cost u more on a longer term which we need to realise

I don't understand what you mean by that. You are saying that non-capping HU is -EV? Or the opposite?

Dont miss the oppertunity to cap with ur premium hands pf which will make ur play more easy to play on later street & will bring u more BB than playing tricky just for the purpose of deception which can back fire

The discussion here is really funny. I - and every other decent small+ stakes player will tell you, not capping at all in HU pots (maybe even 3way sometimes), not 3betting from the BB vs non-SB players (maybe even SB) are two generally accepted and popular strategies that don't lose any value, on the contrary. If you don't get why, go buy gold status and watch Boomer's vids, it's all in there.

When ur calling from BU with AA against raiser hoping it to be a HU is the first mistake u wil do

On the other hand i can understand why sometime non caping HU can give us value with AA but we need to consider in totallality

Just think of times when we with our aggresion & initiatives takes the pot with our premium hands & its impact which help us to win the other hands without SD with non AA type hand.

One more thing people not considering the backfire effect of slow playing

I haven't been arguing in any direction. I have intended to be a little bit funny tough. The statement,

Also, doing it to "balance an entire range" sounds so much better than "slowplaying AA"

is funny primarily because it is true. It truly does sound much better. You will hear every decent player using the former description of his or her play rather than the latter.

@simsim. I haven't seriously suggested limping or coldcalling AA IP as a serious alternative to raising. I have described it, and pointed out the similarities of it with the "accepted" strategies of doing it OP. They are, as shown, there. They (the similarities) are just differently described in terms of terminology. Ask a pro - "Do you slowplay AA?" the answer is no. But he is happy to say that he "is flatcalling an entire range".

/Johan =

As poker fashion changes, there are other pieces of terminology that change. Consider the term "leading out". It was once considered a good play in NL. Now, it is termed "donking". But the now adored "min-raising" was termed "gay-raising" and viewed with utter suspicion.

The past and present terminology both indicate that something is "obvious". While there is perhaps a well defined GTO play that is "right" in some well defined sense, it is pretty ****-ing far from obvious what it is, especially when ranges are involved, and there are plenty of betting rounds remaining :).

/Johan =