Zoom 500, shove?

OK, I'll take a bite from the cheap seats.

Assuming that his strong TP&FD, combo draws, nut flush and sets are getting it in on the flop. At first glance he does appear a little weaker. But he can still have JJ+, 9Ts (maybe 9To?).

The weaker part of his range on the turn looks very narrow, TJo (no TJs this gets called preflop?). He is calling preflop with all TQ,KT,AT?

So that would put him on AA-JJ, T9s & JTo

So I'm not sure you can shove for value. Better hands you can get to fold are mayyybe JJ-KK and that's about it. And if he's folding these, he's folding JTo too and you're toast.

He also may have some slow played sets still in there and maybe some AT and 9To in which case it's starting to get depressing.

It would be interesting to hear yours and others thoughts.

readless, fold or 4bet pre imo; i reallly don't like flatting.

I don't think you get value or make better fold by shoving, c/c sucks because he'll expect you to jam draws, IF I flat pre I think you have to c/c down from the flop and hope he barrels wide enough, but I'd just fold pre as a std, 4bet if he's a bit out of line.

Originally posted by oblioo
readless, fold or 4bet pre imo; i reallly don't like flatting.

in 99.9% of games I'd agree, K10 is right in the mddle of my 4b/f range, but NL500 plays ridiculous pre flop. Ranges are completely different to normal, so have tried to adjust accordingly.

I guess I should expand and say that on the flop he can have all the suited connector hands that we don't think he should have, 87s, 89s, 109s, j10s etc.

dunno how bka plays zoom but on a regular 6max table KTo is a snapmuck vs him.

Don't love flop. kinda hard to develop a good raising range there. With your size you leave less than pot bet behind, which doesn't seem like you have a well developed bluffing range there? Axss? If you size smaller you could maybe raise/fold 76s.. but not really.

I just don't see a good check raise range here. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't have one, but yeah. What do you check raise here?

Turn hits your bluffs I assume (?) so hard to value bet vs anything. Although if you XR flop with QJ 87 fd then easy shove. Betting for a bit of value + protecting from maybe 6-7 outs is not unreasonable, but the only size left is jamming, which is too big for that.

So I think check turn, and see what happens.

well if we're readless then fffffffffffffold pre. but its no fun.
so as played, again readless, why should we deviate from the "standard" strategy of a flop c/c? dont see the point. we need a read on his 3b bluffing range and we dont have it.

as played, i doubt hes folding better if we jam. i think he has a lil bit more Ax than you AQ AK AJ w/ bdfd specially. think its too thin to jam for value; i like c/c now.
dont play zoom 500, so not sure if villains are jamming JJ for value here. its a fnl spot bc the bluffs id want villain to have usually just flat pre..

edit: well if he has the qj 87s 68s shit then c/c turn is fine. dont expect villain to call a jam with a 8hi draw

Originally posted by pleno1
in 99.9% of games I'd agree, K10 is right in the mddle of my 4b/f range, but NL500 plays ridiculous pre flop. Ranges are completely different to normal, so have tried to adjust accordingly.

how different?

shove turn?

Originally posted by BC1989RF

Originally posted by pleno1
in 99.9% of games I'd agree, K10 is right in the mddle of my 4b/f range, but NL500 plays ridiculous pre flop. Ranges are completely different to normal, so have tried to adjust accordingly.

how different?

people are 3betting 87s, 98s, 109s, and lots of hands that are in most peoples calling range bvb, ranges are completely skewed vs normal tables.

Originally posted by pleno1

people are 3betting 87s, 98s, 109s, and lots of hands that are in most peoples calling range bvb, ranges are completely skewed vs normal tables.

If someone is 3betting very wide BB vs. SB, I prefer to just limp from SB and then develop limp/fold, limp/call, and limp/3bet ranges.

Very interesting concept, I have looked into doing it but not studied it into great depth yet, but will ask a coach to make a video on it in the short future.

Originally posted by oblioo

Originally posted by pleno1

people are 3betting 87s, 98s, 109s, and lots of hands that are in most peoples calling range bvb, ranges are completely skewed vs normal tables.

If someone is 3betting very wide BB vs. SB, I prefer to just limp from SB and then develop limp/fold, limp/call, and limp/3bet ranges.

Hi Sauce ♠_biggrin:

Originally posted by LgWz

Hi Sauce ♠_biggrin:

I have heard that Sauce does this but have not seen/heard him talk about it yet, though from what I understand he exclusively limps from SB, whereas I generally do it as an adjustment. There are 3 situations I can think of off the top of my head when I open limp SB:

1. a situation like this, where BB is 3betting very aggressively

2. if there's a fish in the BB and I have a weak hand

3. effective stack size is ~20bbs

How about a live seminar with Oblioo speaking about limping bvb?

I'm open to the idea but honestly it would probably take me like 10 minutes to talk about everything I know about it--I'm not at all an expert and it's a somewhat rare situation for me so I don't have a ton of experience.

Also, FWIW, I'd probably generally avoid it at 100NL and below just because of the rake (when villain checks back and you see a flop there is rake, but when you win preflop there's no rake).

Originally posted by oblioo
Also, FWIW, I'd probably generally avoid it at 100NL and below just because of the rake (when villain checks back and you see a flop there is rake, but when you win preflop there's no rake).

Hah, Sauce gets a bit shocked when he notices 500NL rake, so imagine 100NL

Originally posted by oblioo

1. a situation like this, where BB is 3betting very aggressively

Do you have any particular 3bet % BB vs SB when you start implementing this? Can you give some approximations?

Also, I could see the same concepts be applied on the button versus aggressive blinds, have you experimented with that too?

Originally posted by z1pz0r

Originally posted by oblioo

1. a situation like this, where BB is 3betting very aggressively

Do you have any particular 3bet % BB vs SB when you start implementing this? Can you give some approximations?

Also, I could see the same concepts be applied on the button versus aggressive blinds, have you experimented with that too?

To answer your first question, it depends at least as much on how often villain is folding vss SB steals. For example, now I am starting to experiment with limping when the BB folds less than about 55% to SB opens. But if villain folds 65% to steals, it doesn't matter if he's 3betting 35%; I'm still gonna be trying to steal a lot.

And in response to your second question, yes, I have experimented with that but only when the effective stack size is such that it will make it terribly awkward for me to face a 3bet, i.e. when the blinds have about 40 big blinds. If you are 100bb effective or deeper, it's not too hard to adjust to aggressive blinds (whether flatting or 4betting) as long as your opening range isn't too wide.