HU Range terminology (basics)?

Originally posted by toholdem

- Limping - complete SB
calling range - just calling, depends on what spot you talk about, could be anything what involves calling.
Flatting range. - calling when you have option to raise.
- Raising range - just raising, mostly used for open raise range tho
- Raise-calling range - raise/call is line when you raise and then call
- Check raising range - check raise.
- Check raise-calling range - call villain's check raise.
- 3bet light range - light does not stand for right. It means that range consists a lot of bluffs or very thin value hands.
- 3bet light-calling range - ^^
- 3betting range - 3bet, all in or not
- 3bet-calling range - call villain's 3bet
- 3bet shoving range - 3bet villain's raise by going All-In. - 3bet jamming / All-In range.
- 3bet shove-calling range - call villain's 3bet All-In.
- Barreling range - can barrel the flop and/or turn. - Bluffing range.
- 2-3 barrel-calling range - can call villain's barrelling of the flop and/or turn. - Bluff catching range.
- Shoving range - go All-In, regardless of previous betting actions. - Jamming / All-In range.

Thanks zilltine, for helping me out with this stuff. Sorry about the messy OP. I was going to try and insert some BB code to put the list into table-form, but I didn't want to chance messing it all up worse. Just a few more questions, to make sure I'm understanding correctly:

1) Is it then correct and/or universal to say that, in HUSnG's, only the SB can limp in, since limping is completing the SB?

2) Is it correct to say that the SB's limping range, calling range, and flatting range are all referring to the same range, or are they technically all three different from one another? These three have always confused me, for some reason. A lot of times, I'll get the meaning (I think) from the context in which they're used, but then other times, I'll read a post and have doubts.

3) I think I understand about the 3betting range either being All-In or not All-In (doesn't matter which). I just differentiated between the two because I'm used to seeing them that way (3bet NAI and 3bet AI) and I wanted to be explicit in case I didn't understand enough. From what I gather, there are instances where it's more +EV to 3bet by going All-In and then other times it's better to 3bet by not going All-In. But, both the 3bet(AI) and the 3bet(NAI) ranges are both still 3betting ranges.

I'm working on another post that expands upon this one, but I'm going to insert the BB code into it before I copy and paste it onto the forums. It categorizes all the ranges that I'll likely need from either IP or OOP in a HUSnG. There are a few that I didn't include in it, but I still have more experience to get before I think I can use them profitably. Thanks again.

Originally posted by toholdem
Thanks zilltine, for helping me out with this stuff. Sorry about the messy OP. I was going to try and insert some BB code to put the list into table-form, but I didn't want to chance messing it all up worse. Just a few more questions, to make sure I'm understanding correctly:

1) Is it then correct and/or universal to say that, in HUSnG's, only the SB can limp in, since limping is completing the SB?

Yes

2) Is it correct to say that the SB's limping range, calling range, and flatting range are all referring to the same range, or are they technically all three different from one another? These three have always confused me, for some reason. A lot of times, I'll get the meaning (I think) from the context in which they're used, but then other times, I'll read a post and have doubts.

Not the same. SB`s calling or flatting range can be when he limps and gets raised or raises and gets 3bet.

3) I think I understand about the 3betting range either being All-In or not All-In (doesn't matter which). I just differentiated between the two because I'm used to seeing them that way (3bet NAI and 3bet AI) and I wanted to be explicit in case I didn't understand enough. From what I gather, there are instances where it's more +EV to 3bet by going All-In and then other times it's better to 3bet by not going All-In. But, both the 3bet(AI) and the 3bet(NAI) ranges are both still 3betting ranges.

Yes

I'm working on another post that expands upon this one, but I'm going to insert the BB code into it before I copy and paste it onto the forums. It categorizes all the ranges that I'll likely need from either IP or OOP in a HUSnG. There are a few that I didn't include in it, but I still have more experience to get before I think I can use them profitably. Thanks again.

Below is where I tried to match some of the various sub ranges with the appropriate position (IP/SB or OOP/BB). I'm no expert, by any means, but I've played enough hands that I was surprised that it wasn't as second nature as it should be by now.

    IP Opening sub ranges (vpip=%70 for opening range):

RANGE NAME-			DESCRIPTION, USUAL LINE OF PLAY-
Open folding			Fold.
Open limping			Complete the SB.
Open raising			Raise my button.
Open 3bet calling		Call the BB's re-raise.
Open 4betting (not All-In)	Re re-raise the BB (not All-In).
Open 4betting (All-In)		Re re-raise the BB (All-In).
Open All-In			Go All-In immediately.


    OOP Opening sub ranges (vpip=%25 for opening range):

RANGE NAME-			DESCRIPTION, USUAL LINE OF PLAY-
Open folding			Fold.
Open checking/limping		Check and see a flop.
Open raising			Raise the SB.
Open raise calling		Call the SB's raise.
Open 3betting (not All-In)	Re-raise the SB's raise (not All-In).
Open 3betting (All-In)		Re-raise the SB's raise (All-In).
Open 4bet (not All-In) calling	Call the SB's (not All-In) re re-raise.
Open 4bet (All-In) calling	Call the SB's (All-In) re re-raise.
Open 5betting (not All-In)	Re re re-raise (not All-In) the SB.
Open 5betting (All-In)		Re re re-raise (All-In) the SB.
Open All-In			Go All-In immediately.

Do the two lists above appear correct as far as matching each sub range with its appropriate position?

I had made a few fixes (idk) to my post above, about assigning various subranges to their appropriate position. But, upon double checking that, I started double guessing myself too much, so I'll just ask it in a much simpler way.

In a heads up match, from both the Small Blind and the Big Blind, what are the most likely sub ranges that I'll need to be concerned with preflop? A type of answer format would be something like:

  small blind / IP, preflop                Big Blind / OOP, preflop
  (which sub ranges go here?)        (which sub ranges go here?)

In other words, whether I'm in the SB or BB, which preflop ranges should I include in my default strategy when I first sit at a table against an unknown player? My main reason for asking is so that I'll learn to use the correct terminology and I'll be better able to communicate with others when talking about poker strategy. I thought that the answer would have become apparent to me by now, but no such luck. I just have not picked up on it yet.

bump.

Not really sure what you pretend to acomplish with the post, but yes indeed it's all correct, every "range" metting their description.
As to your last post are you trying to figure what wich stats to put in your hud or something, doesn't seem clear to me.
If you're just trowing terms in the air that correlate to HU play,and not statistics I can figure out some more that you don't have there but I'm not sure what you're looking for.
Plus the term all-in is not that common (atleast with me ♦) people use open shove, etc..

Thanks beerzy. As far as accomplishing anything, I'm just trying to get an organized list together of all the more common sub ranges matched with their respective position in a HUSnG. I had pretty much thought that I figured it out, but then when reading literature or various forum posts online, inconsistencies would seem to crop up and make me second guess myself a lot of times.

So, I am just trying to establish the correct sub range names, what they generally mean to most HU poker players, and the position (SB or BB) that uses them during a match. Because, I'm starting to understand enough to post questions about strategy topics but, people won't understand what I'm talking about if I don't have the proper terminology down.

I've probably just got some of the minor details of certain sub ranges mixed up with others. Or, it could be that the meanings are a little ambiguous among various groups of poker players, etc. For example, I used to think that anyone could limp into the pot, after seeing a definition such as [Limp = Entering a pot passively by calling, not raising, especially with a speculative hand. The whole field limped in, so Patty tried to buy the pot]. By the context of "the whole field", I thought that any position was elligible to limp in. But after seeing another definition [To enter the pot by calling rather than raising. (The usual concept of "Limp In" is when the first person to speak just calls the Big Blind.)] I figured that maybe the first definition was applicable to multiplayer tables and the second definition was exclusive to heads up formats, where only the small bling can limp in. I'm really not sure. I guess that technically in heads up formats, the small blind is the only position that can open limp and the Big blind's version of doing more or less the same type of thing would be to just check and see a flop. If that understanding is correct, then it would be correct for me to say that, "In an HUSnG, the small blind has an open limping range preflop, and the Big blind has a checking range preflop". That makes almost perfect sense to me, although earlier tonight, I Googled a page that mentioned a limping range for the Big blind also, but I don't see how that would be possible, because either the small blind open limps in, in which case the Big blind can then fold, check, or raise. Or, the small blind folds, in which case the Big blind has no opportunity for any action. So, I guess that page that mentioned the Big blind limping in was referring to the BB's preflop checking range.

Basically, there's a lot of second guessing like that on my part. I started explicitly using the term "All-In" in most cases after I had seen a context where someone had shoved their chips into the pot, but it was later stated that it was only about 3/4 of the entire stack, so it wasn't technically an All-In, which is what I had always thought a shove meant up until that point. So, I figured that I would scour the internet and come up with a list of sub ranges specifically for heads up formats. For the most part, I take "shoving" to mean All-In, and I prefer to use "jamming" ever since that confusion with shoving in the context in which it was used. But when I'm finished, I'll have 4 lists specifically for heads up formats that'll look something like:

SB preflop          BB preflop          SB postflop          BB postflop
------------       ------------          -------------         -------------
[subrange]           [subrange]          [subrange]          [subrange]
[subrange]           [subrange]          [subrange]          [subrange]
   etc...             etc...               etc...                etc...
    ...                 ...                 ...                    ...

Then, when I'm finished with the list that assigns all of the commonly used sub ranges to their respective position and street, I'll do a first run at sorting all of the starting hands into the different ranges based on what works good against the average population pool that I play against. Then, using the more correct terminology from the lists, I'll be better able to form strategy related questions that people will be more likely to understand and answer, rather than going off of my current "iffy" understanding of how all of the ranges fit together in the larger scheme of things. I've been watching beginner videos, but I'm taking my time with them and learning slowly, so I haven't got as far as learning all of the sub range names yet.

The thing with your post is I don't understand if you are some theorist or just missing out on some basic things, but I'll try to answer my best ♦
I can confirm your that the BB can't ineed limp, it can only call a 2bet(raise), 3bet or check.
I don't know if you use a hud, but what you refer by "sub ranges" is more treated as stats, maybe "sub ranges" is a technicall term I don't know but people will refer them by stats.
And a range in poker is treated as a group of hands (I'm not finding the proper words but I'm sure if you do a quick research you can find the proper definition) and you usually use it do put your opponent (Villain) on a hand 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KQo example from pokerstove that means vil is doing what ever action with that specific range wich corresponds to a percentage, this case 11,5%, we could say for example that this is his BB 4bet shove calling range in a HU, there is also your percieved range wich is the range villain estimates you have (or the range you estimate he estimates you have ♦ ♦) my native language is not english .

I'll do a first run at sorting all of the starting hands into the different ranges based on what works good against the average population pool that I play against

The reason I gave this exp. about ranges is cause you are treating stats as ranges, when people talk about 3bet 4bet in threads they usually present some percentages making this stats.
From what I've get you're trying to assign a group of hands to each action by actually put hand an hand, but that's work for some mathmaticians not for you, and you wouldn't be sucessefull as in low levels many players present player tendecies giving preety different hands to the different actions (stick with the HUD and do some post analysis and you'll get why).
I would advise you to read the mersenary e-book it's presented by another forum wich I think I can't say the name cause it's advertising, but if you do a search and sign up it's for free and a good read for you.

"The thing with your post is...." I'm sorry about that. It's because although I've been learning about poker for awhile now, I'm still relatively new at understanding all of the proper terminology that goes along with ranges. I'm not a theorist, just messing around with some basics and getting my "range" vocabulary cleaned up of any mistakes so that I can communicate better.

I started out playing full ring and 6max games, and just recently switched to learning HUSnG's. I've reached the point now where I'm starting to understand strategy discussions more when I read about them on various forums, in books and videos, etc. But when I started to try and form some types of questions, it came to my attention that my understanding of range terminology was mistaken in some areas. I don't have a HUD yet, so I'm not referring to any type of stats or anything. I think my use of the term "sub range" comes from the way that I think of ranges in general. In my mind, the current way that I think about them is that at the top most level there is a "playing range" and a "folding range". Then, the playing range can be further broken down into smaller groups of hands, based on what betting action is generally taken with those hands when playing a typical, unknown opponent (no reads yet). So, I call those smaller sub sets of the playing range "sub ranges". It might be incorrect to do so, I'm not sure. I started using the "sub" prefix soon after I had read about it and also noticed a few misunderstandings that I had while reading some posts by others. I guess I misread the context in which the term "range" was used and it lead me to misunderstand the main meaning of the discussion, so I started using the term "sub range". It is kind of redundant - I should probably go back to just using the term "range" instead because that misunderstanding that happened awhile back has not appeared again for a long time.

I guess I should give a basic rundown of what ranges that I currently use in HUSnG's. From the small blind, I start a match by playing around %85 so that I can open raise most of my buttons. That playing range is currently divided into a limping range, a raising range, a raise calling range, a 3bet calling range, a 4betting range (not All-In), a 4bet shoving range (All-In), and an open shoving range (All-In). For other situations that arise, I don't really have a predetermined range, so to speak. For instance, when I bluff I don't have a predetermined bluffing range or anything - if the situation arises I just go with any very strong reads that I have and make a bluff. But the hand that I bluff with could be from any of the seven playing ranges that I named earlier. This is one example of where I'm not sure if I'm thinking about it the right way or not. I think to myself, "Should I have a so called bluffing range, or just stick with the basics for right now, until my understanding of ranges is better ?"

From the Big blind, I play around %55. That OOP playing range is made up of a checking range, a raising range, a raise calling range, a 3betting range (not All-In), a 3bet shoving range (All-In), a 4bet calling range, and a shoving range. My thinking about the way I have my OOP playing range is about the same as that of the playing range from the small blind... "Should I maybe add one or two critical ranges to it that I'm currently not thinking of ? Or, am I thinking about them all in more or less the correct way ?" I wonder, because even though most times I'll understand a discussion involving ranges and strategy, sometimes I think that there's still a flaw in my understanding of them or that I might be using some specific terms in the wrong context or something. For example, I've seen it mentioned about a check/raising range. Should I even have one of those ? I like to check/raise often to get more value out of a hand, but I don't specifically have a check/raising range. It's more like the bluffing opportunity that is mentioned in the previous paragraph. When the board cards are right enough and villain seems to have caught a piece of it, but my hand is a monster, then I'll check/raise if the betting action allows it.

"From what I've get you're trying to assign a group of hands to each action by actually put hand an hand..." Yeah, that's kind of how I think of ranges. Like when I first sit down against an opponent, I have in mind each betting action that might come up from either position and the group of hands that are suitable for that certain betting action. It's more of a default way of looking at all of the starting hands and how I might play them. The ranges themselves are very dynamic, in that they change the moment that I get any reads on an opponent, but just so I don't end up tanking alot, I have each starting hand more or less assigned to one or more ranges. Is there a better way to think about ranges that I have not understood so far ? Or, any obvious mistakes in my thinking ?

Thanks for your advice on that Mersenneary eBook. I've got it already - it's a really good book. I didn't understand it the first time through but, upon rereading it now, I am able to pick up on some hints. I'm currently about 1/4 the way through it trying to piece together my overall view of the SB's and BB's playing ranges and their subranges, but it's a long process. I also have been posting forum questions and looking at videos and online for related articles. From all of what I have written above, are there any major mistakes in my thinking that you can see ?

Below is the latest list that I've been able to come up with. Although it's still a little bit confusing, my train of thought while thinking it up is one of the best tries that I've had yet, I think:

=========================================
Small Blind preflop playing ranges (HU):

? Open-limping range: When the SB places the mandatory small blind bet, the BB then places the mandatory Big blind bet, then the SB calls the Big blind bet, therefore limping into the pot.

? Raise calling range: When the SB open-limps into the pot and the BB responds with a raise, and then the SB calls the BB's raise.

? 3betting range: When the SB open-limps into the pot and the BB responds with a raise, and then the SB re-raises the bet. I had thought that only the Big blind could make a 3bet but, now I'm not so sure?
-----
? Open-raising range: When after both blinds are posted, instead of open-limping into the pot, the SB open-raises.

? 3bet calling range: When after the SB open-raises, and the BB 3bets, and the SB calls the BB's 3bet.

? 4betting range: When after the SB open-raises, and the BB 3bets, and then the SB 4bets. I guess that since it's not a shoving range that it is implied to mean that it's not an All-In bet?

? 4bet-shoving range: When after the SB open-raises, and the BB 3bets, and then the SB 4bet shoves All-In.
-----
? Open-shoving range: When after both blinds are posted, the SB neither open-limps in nor open-raises, but goes All-In immediately.

=========================================
Big Blind preflop playing ranges (HU):

? Checking range: When after the SB open-limps into the pot and the BB just checks to see the flop.

? Raising range: When after the SB open-limps into the pot and the BB raises.

? 3bet calling range: When after the SB open-limps, the BB responds with a raise, the SB responds back with a 3bet, and the BB calls that 3bet.
-----
? Raise calling range: When the SB open-raises, and the BB responds by calling that raise.

? 3betting range: When the SB open-raises, and the BB responds with a re-raise (3bet).

? 4bet calling range: When after the SB 4bets, and the BB responds by calling that 4bet.

? 4bet-shove calling range: When the SB 4bet-shoves All-In and the BB calls this All-In bet.
-----
? Shove calling range: When the SB open-shoves and the BB calls this All-In bet.

=========================================

Well, there it is - another try of mine that attempts to correctly name some of the more common playing ranges that are used from the small blind and/or the Big blind in a HUSnG. It took me about 45 minutes, because as I got about half way through it, I had to constantly double check myself as I added to it, to try and see if or where I was getting confused by it all.

Do I have the above 16 preflop playing ranges written with their proper description and their appropriate position as far as small Blind or Big blind? Or, if I'm mistaken on their usual meanings or appropriate positions (SB or BB), please correct it so that I'm aware of the correct way of naming them.

There's also a few ranges that I could think of but that I left out because I thought that a beginner (me) would not normally start out using them. But others I'm not sure if I should include those or not. For instance, a "check-raising" range. I've seen that term before, but I tend to think of it as more of a particular line that I will take sometimes (check/raise), so I'm not really sure
if it would be correct to add a specific range for it or not. I've also seen the term "Cbetting range" before but I think of it also more as a particular betting line that I will take based on board texture, etc. And then 5betting and 6betting... I didn't add those to the list because I'm usually All-In or folded before the bet goes back and forth that many times.

Anyway, if there are any mistakes in the two lists above, go ahead and copy/paste them into quotes and then write an alternative range name and/or description if you happen to get a chance.

would be much easier for you to figure out what each word means.
open=first to act with no actions before you
flat=call when have option to raise
limp=call the BB
3bet= raise the bet
all in= all in
non-all in= not all in
shove/jam/push=go all in

that will not change when you add them together, for example:
3bet all in = raise bet to all in
open fold = folding hand when there was no action before you

Thanks again, zilltine. Some of my confusion is probably caused by me not knowing the exact meanings of some of those:

"open=first to act with no actions before you"
I take it that it's impossible for the BB to open preflop in HU, right? Because that would mean that the SB would've folded first, which would end the betting action for that hand and make an open bet by the BB impossible? So, in heads up only the SB can open preflop by either limping or raising, correct?
I guess that although the BB cannot open preflop, the BB can open postflop? Like when it's preflop and the SB open raises, then the BB 3bets, and the SB flats the 3bet. Then, after the flop is dealt, the BB can "open" the betting for the postflop round if he wishes?
So, as far as combining the two terms "open" and "range" to relate to heads up play; Is it correct for me to say that my preflop opening ranges would specifically be my open limping range, open raising range, and open shoving range? And those "range" terms would imply to others that I'm talking about hands that I would open the betting with preflop from the SB?
Are there any errors in my thinking? Because I tend to think that a pot in a betting round can only be opened by a bet or raise and not a check. So for example when postflop, whether or not the BB opens or not is determined by whether he bets or raises (opens the betting round), or checks (does not open the betting round)?

"flat=call when have option to raise"
I think I have been thinking of the term "to flat" in too broad of terms. When I had at first seen the term enough times to get an idea of what it meant, I always just assumend that it was synonymous with calling. But after Googling it several times I see that the more specific definition is pretty much what you gave. Is it too vague of me to think that "flat" is just a fancy way of saying "call", or should I most often assume that when someone says that they "flat called a raise..." - that it implies that they are slowplaying with a hand that's strong enough to make a raise but they decided to only called instead?
So, as far as combining "flat" and "range" to relate to heads up play; I guess that the two terms "flatting range" and "calling range" are synonymous? I would think that a flatting range would contain hands that are a tad bit stronger than a calling range, but from all of the contexts in which I remember seeing the term "flatting range", I always just assumed that it meant the same thing as "calling range". I'll be sure to look closer at discussions to see if I can spot any differences between a flatting range and a calling range. If my thinking isn't too far wrong, then my preflop HU flatting ranges from the SB would be my raise calling range and also my 3bet calling range (or to use the term "flat" instead - my raise flatting range and 3bet flatting range)?

"limp=call the BB"
I had always thought this also. I remember you telling me that only the SB can limp. I guess it probably confuses me when I see someone use the term "open limp". Because of the two different terms, it kind of implies to me that if there's an "open-limp" then that must be reserved for the SB and just "limp" could mean either the BB OR the SB limping in postflop? Is it correct that the terms "open-limp" and "limp" technically have two different meanings in HU? I think that in most contexts in which I see the two terms, they usually refer to the same thing but my memory of the exact discussions is vague that so I could be wrong.

"3bet= raise the bet"
I think I have this one down (I haven't run into any confusion with it yet). I always just think that the term "3bet" means the same thing as "re-raise". For example, the BB could raise the SB's bet (not 3bet) OR 3bet the SB's raise (BB re-raises).
While Googling to find out where I was getting confused on some of the betting terminology, I read where someone used the term, "flatting 3bet OOP range". To use it in a context - when the SB open limps, the BB raises the limp, and then the SB 3bets... Is it correct for me to say that the BB might call with his "flatting 3bet OOP range"?

"all in= all in" - no problem there.

"non-all in= not all in" - no problem there.

"shove/jam/push=go all in" - no problem there.

Thank you again for clearing some of my confusion up zilltine. If you or anyone else sees any errors in my above thinking, please let me know. For something that appears to be really basic, some of the betting procedures and terms along with their appriate IP or OOP preflop positions can be quite confusing until they become second nature, for me anyway.

lol yeah, my bad 3bet is raise the raise :p. It goes like that, bet, raise, re-raise (3bet), re-re-raise (4bet), etc.