NL2 AA against two tight players

Hi hvard92,

Preflop: at 2 nl there is absolutely no reason to slowplay a hand like AA. There are 0 good reasons.

You have a ton of guys behind and give them a good chance to come along for good pot odds plus you lose value vs MP1 the initial raiser.

Using a "not getting paid" excuse is a sure way for you to lose bigger pots and win smaller ones. Our brain usually remembers the bad things, which in this case are the "didn't get paid" so of course you'll remember that more often than the times you do get paid.

Going further there is no way you should slowplay this wet flop AFTER you slowplayed preflop. Bet, get value and protect.

I can't stress this enough, the biggest skill you need to work on a the micros is valuebetting and you won't get that done by slowplaying.

Preflop: at 2 nl there is absolutely no reason to slowplay a hand like AA. There are 0 good reasons.

You have a ton of guys behind and give them a good chance to come along for good pot odds plus you lose value vs MP1 the initial raiser.

First i want to say that i am open to change my mind at any time and i'm not stubborn or anything. It just don't make sense to me. Call me stupid if you want too.

I don't want to offend you in any way. I want to believe you but i can't. For me, this is just statements and not facts. I do really think i get more value for keeping their range wide. I have played alot of hands with my HM2 and i think i have a good sample for what's the most valuable of 3bet vs slowplay. I can take all the KK+ i have 3bet preflop and all KK+ i haven't 3bet preflop and compare if you want.

Going further there is no way you should slowplay this wet flop AFTER you slowplayed preflop. Bet, get value and protect.

I agree what you say in general but on this board, what hands should i protect against when i put them on this range? Can you tell me why i shouldn't check when there almost nothing they would call me with?

I can't stress this enough, the biggest skill you need to work on a the micros is valuebetting and you won't get that done by slowplaying.

I think you maybe have misunderstood me a little bit. I don't slowplay wet boards when a fish is in the pot. I slowplay ONLY when i don't think the flop hit them. If that doesn't make sense, i don't know what makes sense anymore...

'' I have played alot of hands with my HM2 and i think i have a good sample for what's the most valuable of 3bet vs slowplay''

And how much is that exactly?

You have no comment?

?

??

I was away most of the weekend (starting Friday) so I didn't see your reply.

Anyway, it's a fact that you should learn to valuebet at 2nl rather than slowplay. That's not a statement. If you want to believe the fact or not it's your choice, as it is your choice to believe anything we say, as coaches

And no worries, no offense taken, what so ever.

What hands do you generally protect from on a wet board? Straights, flushes, etc.

Plus on a wet board an action killing card can come down. For example, the SB villain can easily have a hand like TT and then the turn brings the K of diamonds and now he is scared to put more money in the pot. And you missed the chance to get value from him.

Also, slowplaying to let them hit in a spot where they rarely pay you anyway is a great way for you to produce "coolers". In other words you let them catch up without much reward on your end.

you said your hardly ever 3 betting, this is why you prolly are not geting payed off.

I would fold to someone that was hardly ever 3 betting too....learn to balance your 3 bets with bluffs, you will take down alot of pots with this, and also people will start 4 beting you lighter, so when you actualy do have AA you shove,.... and expect a call :).

MP1's range: ATs+,KQs,ATo+,KQo (nothing he would have called me with)

Sb's postflop callingrange 88-55 (I see now that sb doesn't have to donkbet his QQ-66 here since he could very well wait for the opportunity to check/raise the flop with this range too so he's calling range/raising range don't beat my aces, thus i can actually valuebet here i see now.

Also, slowplaying to let them hit in a spot where they rarely pay you anyway is a great way for you to produce "coolers". In other words you let them catch up without much reward on your end.

Recently, I have began to not 3bet and that pays me off MUCH more and tight players have stacked off with their AJ+ alot when i have KK+ or fish have stcked of with just top pair. I agree with what LoKKK says, that i should probably began 3betting more against player who is likely to fold more often than not. I'm probably gonna try it, but it's so expensive when it doesn't work or your read is wrong. What you say about me, that i produce coolers when slowplaying makes me realise that you haven't understand what i've ment completely. I ment that if i have AA and forexample i play against a tight player and i know he has AT+, KQ on a 259 rainbow board, i don't see any reason at all for not slowplaying the hand until a big card comes. But if he can have QQ-22 too, i wouldn't slowplay it. In other words, if there are zero combos that he could call me with, i wouldn't bet for value.

Interesting discussion! Though I'm not a FR player, I'd still like to leave one comment on something that caught my eye in here.

You said this:

Usually they all suck but one think is for shure, that they have learned that a 3bet means AK, QQ+ most of the times.

If players are folding all the time to 3bets, then why not 3bet more often? You're kind of contradicting yourself here. First you say you rarely 3bet, then you say people fold a ton to 3bets. So exploit them, and 3bet more often!

As has been suggested, 3bet not only with value hands, but include a few bluffs as well. If players really fold to 3bets as much as you say, then there should be a ton of value in 3betting them a lot.

Of course I'm not saying you should go nuts with 3bets, but I agree with everyone else in this thread that not 3betting is a big mistake!

Just my 2c

If players are folding all the time to 3bets, then why not 3bet more often? You're kind of contradicting yourself here. First you say you rarely 3bet, then you say people fold a ton to 3bets. So exploit them, and 3bet more often!

I understand that you're wondering: "Then why don't you 3bet more if all player fold all the time??". The only silly reason for that is because i'm inexperienced with 3betting with other hands than what the startinghandschart says and i will say that yet i'm still new to the game and i am currently doing the NL Beginners Course. The reason i think 3betting KK+ is not profitable is because i'm following the chart which makes me 3betting very rarely. When i play that tight, i can't see the benefit of 3betting, but as i get better and get comfortable with playing more hands, then 3betting makes alot of sense since you raise for value before the flop comes and putting more money in the pot. If i'm gonna follow the NL beginners course strictly, it doesn't make sense to me in 3betting if you're gonna play like a rock. The only positive thing i can say about 3betting while following the chart is that you learn the basics of 3betting and why you do it and that is great. To exaggerate a little bit, i would say that 3betting while following the chart is close to neutral EV in my cases, which is not a surprise.

Originally posted by hvard92
MP1's range: ATs+,KQs,ATo+,KQo (nothing he would have called me with)

Sb's postflop callingrange 88-55 (I see now that sb doesn't have to donkbet his QQ-66 here since he could very well wait for the opportunity to check/raise the flop with this range too so he's calling range/raising range don't beat my aces, thus i can actually valuebet here i see now.

Also, slowplaying to let them hit in a spot where they rarely pay you anyway is a great way for you to produce "coolers". In other words you let them catch up without much reward on your end.

Recently, I have began to not 3bet and that pays me off MUCH more and tight players have stacked off with their AJ+ alot when i have KK+ or fish have stcked of with just top pair. I agree with what LoKKK says, that i should probably began 3betting more against player who is likely to fold more often than not. I'm probably gonna try it, but it's so expensive when it doesn't work or your read is wrong. What you say about me, that i produce coolers when slowplaying makes me realise that you haven't understand what i've ment completely. I ment that if i have AA and forexample i play against a tight player and i know he has AT+, KQ on a 259 rainbow board, i don't see any reason at all for not slowplaying the hand until a big card comes. But if he can have QQ-22 too, i wouldn't slowplay it. In other words, if there are zero combos that he could call me with, i wouldn't bet for value.

SB also called after you called which means that he may think he has enough odds to call with speculative hands such as suited aces or connectors. So I don't think his range is strictly pairs.

As far as the second part goes you have done one homework for the beginners course (it's one of the first) that has asked you to think of spots where you can deviate from the starting hand chart. 3-bet spots are a perfect example for this.

IF you have information that your opponent is tight and folds a lot to 3-bets maybe you slowplay more good hands and raise more bluffy hands.

Or if you have information that your opponent is fishy you 3-bet more hands for value while avoiding bluffs.

i can follow u but:

1. one the most important things in poker is to extract value from ur good hands
and u want to play big pots with ur premium hands
especially on these stakes where it comes to the 2nd part

2. a lot of guys arent paying attention to u, u would be surprised what these guys are calling with to 3 bets or all ins preflop

3. if u are afraid of 3betting aa for value because u think everyone is reacting supertight to ur 3bets then maybe u sit at the wrong table and should choose some other or u arent focused on the tables either

4. postflop gameplan maybe that this is getting a bit to advanced
you said u like to keep the range wide u have some more reasons for that then everyone is folding to my 3bets?
u are able of folding aces postflop?
what kind of boards u can call and where to raise and why and so on

i think with that u make it harder to youreself at the beginning
and what also crossed my mind when u are slowplaying aces preflop u slowplay nuts postflop too?
i dont hope so ♦

SB also called after you called which means that he may think he has enough odds to call with speculative hands such as suited aces or connectors. So I don't think his range is strictly pairs.

Isn't it very rare that a tight NL2 player speculating odds with speculative hands?

As far as the second part goes you have done one homework for the beginners course (it's one of the first) that has asked you to think of spots where you can deviate from the starting hand chart. 3-bet spots are a perfect example for this.

Yea, I missed that one =/

IF you have information that your opponent is tight and folds a lot to 3-bets maybe you slowplay more good hands and raise more bluffy hands.

Or if you have information that your opponent is fishy you 3-bet more hands for value while avoiding bluffs.

I will keep that in mind and i've wrote it down too. Thanks!

4. postflop gameplan maybe that this is getting a bit to advanced
you said u like to keep the range wide u have some more reasons for that then everyone is folding to my 3bets?
u are able of folding aces postflop?
what kind of boards u can call and where to raise and why and so on

i think with that u make it harder to youreself at the beginning
and what also crossed my mind when u are slowplaying aces preflop u slowplay nuts postflop too?
i dont hope so ♦

4. I think i have some clue of it. I am able to fold aces postflop yes but as you say, i am probably make it alot harder for myself in the beginning.

I think i slowplay nuts equally as much as i don't and it depends on the board too ofc. Damn! Every hand i post becomes monsterthreads, lol!

Originally posted by hvard92

SB also called after you called which means that he may think he has enough odds to call with speculative hands such as suited aces or connectors. So I don't think his range is strictly pairs.

Isn't it very rare that a tight NL2 player speculating odds with speculative hands?

Players at these limits play their hands and that's it. So when they see more people in the pot they tend to call more often as well. So i can't see how that can be a rare spot

ok=)