A3s gameplan question

Would you have a c\r range here? Balanced range includes all the possibilities, you say about c\f & c\c but not c\r, is it on purpose or did you just miss it?

Don't you want to be on the betting side of "bet vs check" debate? Seems like we're a bit on opposite sides here I mean that it's a 3way pot, do you want to analyze gameplan for this very situation playing OOP 3way or do you want to discuss what to do after UTG raise on AQxs board in general? If the first then I don't think we need to be on checking side in mway pots a lot of time just because people tend to play more honest in mway pots and seems like we're missing value when c\c with stuff like AA or QQ.

So people will not run 3 barrels bluffs that often and our strong range will suffer when we put it into c\c mode (much less value). So turn & river would be suboptimal at least if we're planning to be in passive mode imo.

Can you please clarify it further?

I meant in general on this board HU play when I am UTG oop.
3way I agree with you.

why would we like to have c/r range here? If I add bluff raise, I would need to add value raise, so it means I would need to take some value hands from c/c range, and c/c would be weaker in that case. Also I think it is the best to cbet all kind of draws on this board and positions, because we get a lot of folds, and I dont think many villians will bet too wide after check and then call wide.
I think c/r on this board is not necessary, and we dont need to have all possible moves, but just to be balanced imo

Originally posted by mlatasrb
1) For each hand on flop I first think if I need c/c range, or I want to bet all. I think the good reason for c/c range is having large amount of 2nd pair hands. Is it good reason? more reasons? On this board, I would have KK, AQ, KQ, QJs, QTs as 2nd pair, I would like also to c/c one street TT, JJ, 78s,89s (54 combos)

2) Since I want to c/c 2nd pair hands, I need to add some stronger hands to call in order not to let him value town me with any Ax. So I would add AA, AT, AJ in my c/c range. (27 combos)

3) I need to have some c/f range, because if I always just c/c entire range, my opponent will just value town me and freeroll weaker hands. So I would
like to c/f hands which have very little equity, like 22-66 (24 combos).

So when you c\c this flop you always have something, right? You c\f all the garbage and with c\c you show that you have at least 3rd pair, quantity of nut combos is very low in comparison to other made hands, right?

By adding polarised c\r range I meant that you can gather his bet on the flop, not allow free card on the turn (or do you play c\c flop donk turn?) and make decisions for the opponent even harder because with neither c\f nor c\c do you put pressure on him. Considering nut-to-no nut ratio c\r won't occur that frequently however imo we can definitely benefit from it and not let smth like KJs, JTs go into the much that easy. Another advantage is that the opponent will keep in mind the possibility of c\r and will know that he won't be able to put much pressure IP because we are able to put the onus on him instead.

The main idea is that your suggested c\c range is wide but not polarised. So it's easier to play vs us especially IP imo. By adding c\r range you still keep c\c range wide and at the same time gather some other bonuses.

But generally I'm on the betting side when considering this issue because c\c says smth about our hand and betting not. At the same time we raise from EP and have a lot of Ax hands so there will be more respect to the bet in this very situation in general making it easier to play and keeping the possibility of winning the pot right away not giving villain the possibility to draw his outs.

That's how I see it, further thoughts are much appreciated!

So when you c\c this flop you always have something, right?

I would add few combos of fd, like KhJh, KhTh so that I dont have always a value and that I can have flush when it comes.

Do you suggest c/c some low equity hands which I would fold on turn and bluff river if checked turn?

quantity of nut combos is very low in comparison to other made hands, right?

Thats right. So the intention of c/c range is to bluff catch, and I put Ax hands just not to let him value town me with e.g. AT. So I dont think that i need more nuts combos. From nuts combos I have only AA, so if he has a set or 2 pairs he is clearly ahead of me. AK is also a strong hand from c/c range. But he has not so many nuts combos, opponent is going to have more often fd or gutshot than nuts anyway.

The main idea is that your suggested c\c range is wide but not polarised. So it's easier to play vs us especially IP imo. By adding c\r range you still keep c\c range wide and at the same time gather some other bonuses.

I dont like c/r as bluff so much, because he can call with so many hands IP. Flop he can float with all gutshots, fd, top pairs this is already a lot (well maybe vs utg reggs dont have so many fd and gutshots but mostly all PP and top pairs, 2nd pairs)
If I would like to have c/r range, then I would need to have value and bluff for each street. Also, I would need to stop bluffing some combos and with some to continue bluffing on turn and river to balance value combos. I could basically have c/r range with some AQ and sets combos, and bluff raise gutshots and give up with them on turn, and with fd combos and bet turn and river with them to balance value range. If I would do that, what would I cbet?
Can you please suggest a c/r range on each street?

At the same time we raise from EP and have a lot of Ax hands so there will be more respect to the bet in this very situation in general making it easier to play and keeping the possibility of winning the pot right away not giving villain the possibility to draw his outs.

I aggree that cbetting would be good, but my idea about c/c range is that it is not good to cbet 2nd pairs and on AKx, AQx, AJx, ATx we have them a lot. If we cbet with 2nd pair flop, it is hard to continue on turn and river because his whole range (top pairs mostly with draws) have so good equity vs us and we are OOP. When we c/c those hands we make his range wider and imo get more profit this way. I dont think that I give often free cards, because most of opponents bet with any draw because my range is perceived weak and they dont have showdown with draw.
So thats why I posted this thread to see if we need here c/c range or not. You added if we needed c/r range so I would like to see what coatches think about this.

Here is my whole range, I was thinking more in detail about it:

preflop range UTG:
78s+, TQs+, Ajo+, KQo, 22+

Flop cbet:
QQ, AQ, 88, KJs, KTs, TJs, 9Ts (15 value + 14 draw combos)

Flop c/c:
AA, AK, AJ, AT, KQ, QJs, QTs, KK, TT, JJ, 78s, 89s, KhJh, KhTh (39 top pairs and set + 18 2nd pairs + 24 weak 2nd pairs and 3rd pairs + 2 combo strong draws)

Flop c/f:
22-77,99 (36 combos)

So from my check range, I fold exactly around 30% to show him that I am able to fold and delay cbet those hands on turn if he checks.
On turn, from c/c range I c/f 30% (which are 3rd pairs and weak 2nd pairs) and call 70% (2nd pairs and top pairs), and on river again I c/f 30% (all 2nd pairs) and call the rest (AA and top pairs).
So this way, I show him on each street that I am able to fold, and I dont let him exploit me by bluffing or value towning.

Thanks for answering.

Hi,

Your gameplan should mostly depends on your opponent. Against unknowns/fishes I would tend to c-bet any pair, any gutshot and any flushdraw. Against players who would like to float I may c/f more often and balance out c/c KK and maybe JJ-99, 8x, weak Ax hands + c/r AK+

Since your UTG range should be quite tight I think players would generally not mess around you too often, so c-bet with close to 100% of your range should show profit if your image is good. If players start fighting back you likely have to adjust your c-bet % and mix up some c/c and c/r ranges.

best regards,

But how do we play KQ, QJs, QTs, KK after we cbet and opponent calls? Then we c/f turn? Isnt it equal to bluff?

Originally posted by mlatasrb
But how do we play KQ, QJs, QTs, KK after we cbet and opponent calls? Then we c/f turn? Isnt it equal to bluff?

With KK and KQ I would most likely c/c turn since if he is floating me with JT, KT or have even Qx then he may easily valuebet himself worse hands. With QTs, QJs I think we may c/f, although since our hand usually does not have too much equity we can also turn it into bluff and bet big on the turn to fold out better Qx hands+floats.
Also you don´t have to be turn barreling range and can always choose either c/c him down or c/r your strong hands (if barrel likes to float). Since that board favorite UTG range I would rather c-bet also my strong range rather than turn them into bluffcatchers (which also allows me to c-bet more with air)

best regards,

Thanks for the answer.

What do you think is the calling range preflop vs UTG from average good regg HU? I think it is 22-QQ, AK, some 3bet AQ some call, not sure how much SC people have?
My point is that, if I cbet AK on AQx, and my cbet got called, I see myself behind vs opponents range (since I dont think he has many draws in the range or worse Ax). If I would be in CO PFR then is ok.

Originally posted by mlatasrb
Thanks for the answer.

What do you think is the calling range preflop vs UTG from average good regg HU? I think it is 22-QQ, AK, some 3bet AQ some call, not sure how much SC people have?
My point is that, if I cbet AK on AQx, and my cbet got called, I see myself behind vs opponents range (since I dont think he has many draws in the range or worse Ax). If I would be in CO PFR then is ok.

Hi,

Depends mostly on your image but since you´re 250bb deep I think he is likely calling/3-betting suited connectors/suited broadway hands/small and medium pp-s and sometimes AJ/AQ.
So you should not be always behind if get called on AQxs board. Ofcourse if you want to pot control/induce bets from hands which would have folded to your c-bet then that option is also fine.
I would just generally c-bet, since my range is stronger than his and if he sees you c/c with Ax hands I doubt he is start going nuts with his small pp-s and likely you give him free card that can cost us pot.

best regards,

Originally posted by Kaitz20
I would just generally c-bet, since my range is stronger than his and if he sees you c/c with Ax hands I doubt he is start going nuts with his small pp-s and likely you give him free card that can cost us pot.

I think we can split his range in 4 categories:

1)
I also think he is not going nuts with low equity hands if he sees me having a c/c range. This was exactly my point of c/c range. Since on flop I have 66% c/c and 33% c/f range, then if he checks to me on flop I am going to bet turn and river with my whole range and I assume most of opponents would still fold low equity hands on turn, in the same way they would fold on flop cbet. So, still I fold his whole range on turn with delayed cbet which he would fold on flop. I would say, for that the result is similar, the only drawback of c/c that sometimes he improves, but low equity hands dont improve that often, so I think it is not a huge deal.

2)
I didnt expect him to go nuts with low equity hands, but I expect most of opponents to bet bet bet draws, or at least bet bet gutshots. Those hands he wouldnt fold on flop anyway vs cbet, and will most likely bet on flop If I check. So when I compare those 2, I would have hard time playing 2nd pairs and top pairs as AT, AJ, when he calls me or raises me, but if I c/c it is easy decision. Off course, I could still play gto and continue vs raise with 50% of my range.

3) The hands as 2nd pairs, he would call flop and turn and fold river vs my cbets (2 streets of value), and would check behind flop vs my check and then still call 2 streets, or bet flop and turn check river, still 2 streets. So I would say this is somehow similar, he sees all the cards anyway probably for the similar price.

4) Top pairs he would call call call vs cbets (since he mostly has AK, AQ, maybe AJ folds river), and would probably bet bet bet or bet bet check behind with AJ so I think there are still 3 streets.

All in all, I think that the main difference is that when I cbet flop his range gets tighten, and when I c/c his range might be wider, depends if villian is aggro or not.
So as a conclusion, vs aggro opponents who are able to bluff vs checks I can have c/c range, and vs more passive opponents I can just cbet whole range? This was easy, but I still am not conviced what is better vs good balanced reggs. I guess it is better cbet as you suggested, because when I check to him he can decide wheater to freeroll or not so his decisions are easier which means less mistakes for him?

Originally posted by mlatasrb

Originally posted by Kaitz20

So as a conclusion, vs aggro opponents who are able to bluff vs checks I can have c/c range, and vs more passive opponents I can just cbet whole range? This was easy, but I still am not conviced what is better vs good balanced reggs. I guess it is better cbet as you suggested, because when I check to him he can decide wheater to freeroll or not so his decisions are easier which means less mistakes for him?

Hi,

Against aggressive opponents I would also prefer checking, since likely they would both bet their air and most made hands (that are often worse than Ax hands). If player is passive I would likely c-bet close to 80% and fold hands that has very little equity if get called.

Usually I would prefer c-betting, since it just makes it harder to play against you. If you´re not going to c/r them then they can always adjust either taking one stab and giving up or start making some kind of turn overbets which is almost impossible without good reads to call down marginal hands.
So instead of guessing I would mostly prefer taking initiative to give them option to float you. Standard half pot c-bet flop, check turn may seem often weaker than c/c flop.

best regards,

Hi,
Thanks for answering, and sorry for asking so many questions, but this is important for me.

Ok, so you suggest having on turn c/c range. Arent we having similar problem as on flop c/c? Giving a free card and he can overbet turn vs check or bet normal and overbet river?
Also if he overbets turn, I dont see the problem. If he is a nitt, we continue only strong range, if he is aggro player, we look at our odds and call by gto % of hands (easy decision). If he did it first time, we can be on nittier side and next time if he does it again call by gto. So I think he cant do really anything crazy to exploit me, because he has only the option to check or bet, and what ever the bet size is I will call anyway with gto %.

If he uses the strategy by cbetting once and giving up, well thats what I want. I will fold only 30% of my range (low equity hands) and call all other so it means he cant exploit me this way I make more money than when I cbet and he folds (unless he floats much vs utg on Axx which I doubt).
If he bets twice and gives up, I still call with all 2nd pairs + and I make even more profit because again I just fold 30% on turn. On river the same thing if he bluffs.
If he value bets 100%, never bluffs (and I dont have read on that), I end up calling only top pairs on river, which i would anyway bet bet bet or I would even get raised and then call down, so I lose less money this way.

What strategy, would you have vs me if you exactly know my gameplan?

I would bet flop and turn with TPGK and check river behind (no value, 2nd pairs folding) and bet bet bet all strong hands, bet flop and turn with fd because we have FE and equity and on river I would give up fd (not enough FE).
Gutshot, bet once and check turn for free card, raise river if improved.
2nd pair, check flop, call turn, call river.

Hmm, I am not sure if this approach wins vs c/c strategy? it seems to me as break even at the best.

Hi,

If we c-bet flop then likely he can´t have complete air too often, but he can always have there gutshot hands, flushdrawsm, worse hands than Qx which he calls at least once.
If we think he is aggressive I would generally prefer c/c turn, since then he can bet his floats, if we bet turn he has to fold his air too often.

Answer to general gameplan:
Since he doesn´t know which line you take with your showdown value hands I think he is mostly valuebetting twice with top pair hands (or bet flop, check turn, bet river) and may 3-barrel bluff with missed draws.
So if you want to add AK to your check/call ranges then it is always good option to balance out your generally weaker range that can´t take too much heat

best regards,