T3s BB

Preflop: This depends on how well you play postflop. Most people (including me) should fold because realizing the (puny) equity one has with T3s out of position is difficult.

Flop: The flop is a fold. (This is why you should fold preflop.) You could also check-raise depending on your exact range here. Calling based on odds is a losing proposition. The fact that the buttons range is wide doesn't help you much on a flop like this.

Turn: As played, I like it. You have the almost the worst possible showdown value you could have, and plenty of outs, so from a balanced perspective, you have to bluff here. When 3-bet, your outs make it a call.

River: EDIT: Missed at first that he 3-bet turn. Check-fold is clear.

All in all, the biggest mistake is preflop because you get yourself into situations where you make subtler, but costlier, mistakes.

Hi!

I think its ok preflop.

Flop is not a fold with gutshot and BDFD but I would preffer a raise.

Turn as played seem a clear raise with low nuts and good equity, also call is easy.

Calling on the flop is not even an option. Would you expect the opponent to pay you off in full in the unlikely event that a 9 hits? Only fish call getting 5.4:1 with an almost naked gutshot to non-nuts. Sure, once every ten years you'll make a BD flush as well. Not enough, whatever anyone tells you. If you insist on playing suited trash, then you simply have to be quite aggressive. It is the only chance to take the hand down without showdown - which you need to make the overall play profitable.

Flop call would be based on outs which is clearly given. You have 4 very clean for gutshot,about 2 for BDFD and certainly T is worth at least 1-2. Folding 7 outer on the flop is not rly that good of an idea since in HU pots even 4,5-5 clean outs is usually enough to continue....but yes I would also preffer a raise.

Oh and raise is prefferable imo due to the fact that as gnanan already analysed your equity of around 25-30% is not rly that bad so you dont need superbly a lot of FE. Kx,Qx and even some Ax will have a very hard time calling multiple streets on this board.

Yes Dawnfall, I counted 7 outs on that. I knew that eventhough the J is there, my T is atleast worth 1 out HU. So getting 6 to 1 odds.(pott odds 5.4 to 1).
But i dont know about equity. How much do you need for Calling Flop, turn or River HU.
Why would you prefer a raise on the Flop? Is it more due to Fold equity or the hand strength? Then if i get Raised Flop->Call & Check/Call This turn and Check/Fold river??

Also Tell me on which Flops it better to Check/raise than Check/Call HU other than the usual Top/middle pair or Some good FDs. As you said Gutshot+BDFD should be included then.

Why do you always make things general. You have to look at each individual case... raising with gut+BDFD is always done because you think you gain more by(FE+chance of improvment). If you call FE is left out...so higher you think your FE is the better bluffing gets.In case you think you have no FE you clearly are spewing when bluffing( even with strong draws!).

Here I think BU has a lot of Ax,Kx and even Qxs,pockets, which are the targets of our bluffing since they cant so easily calldown. I havent done the exact math but since you have around 25% equity then you only need about 20% FE which should be given. Again I dont think this line is a huge winner and clearly is high variance but its makes you raising range much more balanced and hard to play against.

If you get 3bet then yes proceed on odds and outs.

And another of your questions...how much equity to call flop...
Equity only matters when you intend to go to SD with your hand. When you have Thigh and want to call you usually dont want that so its irrelavant. In this case its all on odds and outs.

Your ways of counting outs is skewed. In order to achieve a value call you must be able to check-raise the turn and also get called on the river. Either a 9 or a T on the turn should slow down the action considerably. The board would be JT87 or J987, something I (as the button player) wouldn't bet into, call a raise on the turn and a bet on the river with something like A high. In other words, counting the 3 remaining T's as 2 outs is ridiculous. The nines are slightly tainted as well. Hitting a 3 may even be bad for you (now you are probably calling twice more if he bets, and you only beat his bluffs)

The attitude "my pile of shit is suited, I get 3:1 to call" is horrible unless you play unusually well postflop and your opponent sucks. Check it out in your tracking software. You may have been winning with some of it, but then you have simply been lucky.

who to trust dawnfall or yohan.

hmm very tough

dawnfall whos been a successful player for 5 years and played up to 30/60

or a swede ive never seen higher than 25/50c - 0.5/1 (correct me if im wrong but never heard you or seen any hands from above those stakes)

I think Ill go with Dawnfall

And, as usual, another informed and analytic post by Avataren. You seem to think that calling is loose and aggressive - something you like. The news for you is that calling makes you a fish. If you play this, then raise goddammit. This applies whether you play $30-$60 or (like you and me) 5c-Tc.

The way you formulate your posts makes me believe that if anyone playing higher than you posts any sort of joke, then you would buy it wholesale. That is to say, you have no brain of your own and you love ass-licking.

I said T is worth 1-2 outs(2 being too much and 1 prolly too low considering his wide range)...but lets take 1 for the sake of argument.

We have 4x9 which is clear and lets even say we have 0 implied odds(which is obviously false since we will still get at least some bets from sets,two pair,overpair,draws,top pair.

2 card BDFD is worth 2 outs and even here lets assume we have 0 implied(which again is obviously false).

Then there is even that 3 which will not help us very often but even if we consider it not as an out it will sure win us the pot some % when we hit and he checks...so certainly its better than 0 but lets say its 0.

So worst case scenario,0 implied we have 7 outs.For that we need direct odds of 1:6 to immediatelly make it a proffitable call. We are given 1:5,4 which is not quite enough but also not far off. And this is the worst case scenario which is clearly not true.

Better version would be...imo at least...

-4x9 are very clear, and we can expect at least 1BB more if we hit on average.
-BDFD we get 2 outs and if we hit we can expect at least 1,5BB more
-we have about 1,5 for T, here our implied odds are bad and probably slightly negative...so reducing it to 1 out seems like a fine idea
-lastly we have something for that 3. If we count 0,3-0,5 I dont think we are much off.

So I would say we are at about 7,3 outs with some implied odds when we hit,since biggest part comes from very good hands.I would say we have at least 1BB implied odds here. We are given 1:5,4+(1BB implied)=1:6,4 .... that makes it an easy call.

Your preflop assumption that this hand is loosing more than 1bb when defending I think is very bold and imo wrong. Ive never done any math in these regard but Ive adopted my preflop play according to some players I thought were good so I kindda trust them in this regard. But if you provide me a solid sample of a good winning player who is loosing in this spot I may change my mind.

Instead of speculating about the precise value of the outs, consider the equity as calculated by Equilab. The equity is well below 30%. Even so, this is a call based only on equity alone. But the problem is that it is impossible to realize the equity. You are out of position, and the board is obviously extremely dangerous if you happen to hit one of your outs. You aren't going to be paid off well enough if you hit.

I wouldn't even believe that calling here is good if Phil Ivey said so. Simple logic says fold or raise. Fish call here.

EDIT: And yes, the player calling on the flop here is better off folding preflop. As I said, you have to play well postflop to play suited trash to begin with.

Again I will say this... all I wrote in these FL threads are just my opinions and since its an open board Im allowed to express it. Sure if you dont agree with me,feel free to think otherwise,I however am pretty confident in what I said.

Also some remarks on your response...
1."speculating about precise value of outs"...
thats what poker is all about, and I believed I approached it in the right manner looking at the worst scenario and then also at more reasonable one...

2."consider the equity as calculated by Equilab"...
that is imo a clearly missguided approach of looking at things, since when debating about odds and outs equity has absolutelly nothing to do with it. Playing on odds and outs means you will only continue on the cards that improve you to what you think is the best hand and if there is enough of them you make a call.
Equity on the other hand means how often you are going to be good on the river vs given ranges and is mostly usefull in cases when you actually have some SD value when you can imagine winning at SD even unimproved.
To disprove your claim I can give u an easy extreme example. Lets say you oponent has AhAs and you have 3h4h. Its a raised pot and board comes 7h9hKc.

Equity Win Tie
MP2 67.96% 67.96% 0.00% AhAs
MP3 32.04% 32.04% 0.00% 4h3h

Equity on the flop is lower than needed(which is 36-38%) but its obviously still a call on your outs.You dont call here thinking that you are good vs certain part of his range but because you think you will improve on enough turn cards. Its true however that if equity is good enough that is pretty much always going to be a call but sometimes equity may easily be lower and it can still be a call.

3."claims that board is extremly dangerous and that we are OOP and that we wont get paided often enough"...
that is all partially true but also made out of thin air. I assumed all those factors in the analyses of our outs. Yes we are going to get paid of less being OOP but vs TP+ we definatelly will get paid off often enough, also T will improve us often enough,I mean just look at his range and look at how many hands we beat when hitting T.

Anyway that would be my last post on this subject.

Originally posted by YohanN7
And, as usual, another informed and analytic post by Avataren. You seem to think that calling is loose and aggressive - something you like. The news for you is that calling makes you a fish. If you play this, then raise goddammit. This applies whether you play $30-$60 or (like you and me) 5c-Tc.

The way you formulate your posts makes me believe that if anyone playing higher than you posts any sort of joke, then you would buy it wholesale. That is to say, you have no brain of your own and you love ass-licking.

your the joke man, your the one im constantly laughing at the spew you talk. Honestly I don't really care what you write is right or wrong. Your a good analytical person. You know stuff I don't deny that, but man really you should look at yourself instead of bashing me. stop being the joke, you know the past of you and this forum. Don't make the same mistake as back then. Then I won't.

Let us rephrase this, Lets say a question about track running like Usain Bolt.

Who would you ask for help ? Usain bolt or a fish in a bowl ? News flash, your the fish in a bowl.

oh and one more thing, I never said anything about this specific hand. The only thing im against is that you berate Dawnfall and almost straight out calling him bad as if you know better how to play this hand.. Honestly I haven't read any of the posts you and Dawnfall really has been talking about. I just get annoyed when someone who thinks they are better than they are and question someone whos better, with that said I am not saying Dawnfall is always right and can't be wrong. Its not the play but your attitude i am constantly reacting to. I don't like you Yohan you know that and I would prefer you left these forums as you once did (which i was so happy about).. but lets stop it here. Be as you want just don't act high and mighty that is your attitude problem you know it you once admitted it to yourself and us remember? Calm down and all im saying is just don't go and talk down to people.

Flop is an easy call but not a checkraise. But rather checkraise the Flop than c/f since you can consider having 6 outs on the Gutshot - Tx and bd-Flushdraw which is worth about 1 out. But if you think about all your semibluffing-hands you can choose a bunch of stronger hands that have one more overcard in addition. so lets say KT or QT and you can semibluff 96. IF you are checkraising this hand, you're overbluffing a lot. Checkraise on the Turn is viable since you might have QT , AQ and KQ sometimes and you can not only represent a draw. But call is fine too. Cap Turn would be too much by all means. There is not much you can do but call the Turn and as you did - fold the River unimproved.

Originally posted by firsttsunami
Flop is an easy call but not a checkraise., ...

You wrote this exactly for the reason that Dawnfall and Avataren has argued that the fishy call is correct. You don't believe it yourself.

But then, go ahead. Be fish. Call getting 5.4:1 for a naked gutshot. Invent reasons. Be idiots.

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by firsttsunami
Flop is an easy call but not a checkraise., ...

You wrote this exactly for the reason that Dawnfall and Avataren has argued that the fishy call is correct. You don't believe it yourself.

But then, go ahead. Be fish. Call getting 5.4:1 for a naked gutshot. Invent reasons. Be idiots.

Yohan - please don't go down this route again.

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by firsttsunami
Flop is an easy call but not a checkraise., ...

You wrote this exactly for the reason that Dawnfall and Avataren has argued that the fishy call is correct. You don't believe it yourself.

But then, go ahead. Be fish. Call getting 5.4:1 for a naked gutshot. Invent reasons. Be idiots.

Yes i just wrote this because i like them so much and not because its the right decision. you'd better invest your time on working on your elementary leaks than randomly insulting people. i dont know any good player who is folding the flop and the main leak of most of the lowstakes players is that they fold too much, as you apparently do.

You don't call when you have insufficient odds. But you may raise. It is trivial.

Hello guys,

Violent discussion here

Is it correct to x/r that flop against a tight villain, but to x/c against a loose aggressive one?
(usually vs aggro players we don't have much FE so I tend to be on the passive side )