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JJ 4bet turn A

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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

partypoker - $1 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 187.76 BB
SB: 105.56 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 23.75, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 81)
BB: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 18.30, PFR: 15.12, 3Bet Preflop: 7.13, Hands: 1,575)
UTG: 120.53 BB (VPIP: 23.41, PFR: 17.46, 3Bet Preflop: 8.05, Hands: 758)
MP: 92 BB (VPIP: 24.33, PFR: 17.91, 3Bet Preflop: 9.81, Hands: 1,290)
CO: 153.3 BB (VPIP: 29.86, PFR: 23.89, 3Bet Preflop: 10.26, Hands: 2,307)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♥ J♣

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2 BB, SB raises to 7 BB, fold, Hero raises to 12 BB, SB calls 5 BB

Flop: (25 BB, 2 players) 5♦ 5♣ 5♠
SB checks, Hero bets 9 BB, SB calls 9 BB

Turn: (43 BB, 2 players) A♦
SB checks, Hero bets 8 BB, fold

Spoiler

Hero wins 48.85 BB

I am trying to min 4bet turn with TT+, AQ+ value and playable hands like 45s-78s, 46s-8Ts. The reason is that regs shove all the time vs my 4bets, or call (around 2/3 call and 1/3 shove when they defend) and most of them fold only around 20-30% vs 4bets, but have around 15% 3bet vs BU.
So my idea is to 4bet min because I want to make their shove very expensive, and to force them to call very wide and play OOP with weaker range. If they 5bet min I can simply shove value part of range having a lot of dead money.

So I would be mostly playing IP, having more stack left than with standard 4bet size, having playable and not dominated bluffs in range. Disadvantage is that my FE would be very low so bluffs will have hard time playing +EV, but anyway I have very little FE also with standard 4bet size.
Even though it makes most sense to be value heavy and continue standard 4bet size, that way I open myself for exploits and they are regs, so they can spot it easily, my 4bet % would be very low (whole population doesnt fold much vs 4bets).


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6 replies
mbml
Joined: 27.11.2008

if their defense comprise 2/3 call and 1/3 shove, your <2X 4b size is not very good. you are allowing them to defend a super wide range profitably.

if they are calling <20% and shoving >80% then I could see arguments for using your strategy.


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

But is it a problem if they get good pot odds if my range is value heavy, with playable undominated bluffs? Maybe he plays it +EV, but it is just because he already invested money and there is a lot of dead money in the pot, but it doesnt mean that if he plays +EV, that I win less or dont win at all. Also if he has correct pot odds to call (According to CREV or whatever) it doesnt mean that he will play correctly postflop OOP. regs spew exactly there the most often (me too).


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mbml
Joined: 27.11.2008

Anything that allows him to increase his ev will decrease your ev.

If your 4b range is way too value heavy then i think the problem lies w the way u construct ur range here.


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

But I construct value heavy 4bet range vs people that dont fold enough e.g. 30% fold vs 4bet. So why would I continue with balanced range? Ok, we can say that then they can conclude that I am value heavy and fold each time, but are they going to conclude it considering that they have leak first of all? I guess preflop is easier to conclude what other guy range has than postflop, so I should be more carefull.


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

It seems to me that you are recommending to play balanced and also defend according to nash for every single villian. You even told me about how hard it is to balance shove preflop range vs maniac (Few hands ago). So is your general strategy to play balanced vs each villian, and not deviate much from it even if villian is so much unbalanced and open for exploits?

All other coatches advice me that I should play "GTO" vs guy who play GTO, and not vs regs on my limits. So I am very confused when I hear opposing opinions.


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mbml
Joined: 27.11.2008

1. i don't see you providing any reads on this specific villain in your initial post. You were merely talking about general opponents. Thus I suggested using balanced ranges.
2. Against someone folding 30%, you weight your range towards value hands, and you use larger 4b sizes, not smaller sizes

to give u a very simple analogy, would you bet larger vs calling stations on the river with thinner value hands? (potting with TPTK for 3 streets for example) You probably would. I don't see why this logic doesn't carry over to preflop.

When someone doesn't fold to 4bets, just maximize your preflop value by raising larger.


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