CO v BB xr flop QT2 board

Hi!

Here Im calling anything I want to continue with. That means I would fold disconnected Kx,Jx,9x,8x that I have at this point.

So you call every pocket pair ? As the BB how does your x/r range look like ?

Hi!

Yes pocket pairs should be easy call here,also you may be overfolding if you do fold them. On this board Im calling them down as default. Obviously on ugly cards they are folds.

As BB I would c/r this board a lot... Tx+ seem easy. J9,KJ,most FDs(not Ax FDs though) also seem easy.

2x,pockets,connected Ax are calls.

Gutshots are debatable and I may include them in either raise or calling range depending on oponent.

Well I think if you dont fold some pockets here you dont fold enough on the flop.

I took your CO range you posted in an earlier thread
(33+,A2s+,K6s+,Q7s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,A7o+,K8o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T8o+,98o)

You have 417 combos on this flop 26,6% vs a xr, and that makes 111 combos so you need to call with 317.

You cant fold gutshots especially with an overcard or a backdoor flushdraw because they have more equity than small pockets, even than 88, and you need to have some of them in your bluff range as well.

Also on a blank turn like a 3 you needed to fold them anyway. You have around 20% equity with them here, but this is not 100% showdown vale some of it comes from backdoor set outs and you cant peel for that.
So I think you need to fold every pocket that does not have a backdoor flushdraw up to 88 this gives enough potential for them to see further streets, tho how many times you'll be good or pay off with a 3 high backdoor flush is also a question for me.

So I came up with this range(i had to put some linebreaks in it, so if you want to put that in equilab just remove them):

99+,8d8h,8d8s,8d8c,7d7h,7d7s,7d7c,6d6h,6d6s,6d6c,5d5h,5d5s,5d5c,4d4h,
4d4s,4d4c,3d3h,3d3s,3d3c,ATs+,A2s,K9s+,Q7s+,JTs,T8s+,98s,Ad9d,Jd9d,Ad8d,Kd8d,Jd8d,Ad7d,Kd7d,9d7d,8d7d,Ad6d,Kd6d,8d6d,7d6d,Ad5d,Ad4d,Ad3d,
ATo+,K9o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o,98o,Ad9h,Ad9s,Ad9c,Ah9d,As9d,Ac9d,Ad8h,Ad8s,Ad8c,Ah8d,As8d,Ac8d

For the BB I gave this a x/r range :

KK+,JJ,QhQs,QhQc,QsQc,ThTs,ThTc,TsTc,ATs,KTs,JTs,AhQh,AsQs,AcQc,KhQh,KsQs,KcQc,QhJh,QsJs,QcJc,QhTh,QsTs,QcTc,Kh9h,Ks9s,Kc9c,Qh9h,Qs9s,Qc9c,
Jh9h,Js9s,Jc9c,Qh8h,Qs8s,Qc8c,Jh8h,Js8s,Jc8c,9h8h,9s8s,9c8c,Qh7h,Qs7s,Qc7c,8d7d,Qh6h,Qs6s,Qc6c,8d6d,7d6d,Ad5d,Qh5h,Qs5s,Qc5c,8d5d,7d5d,6d5d,
Ad4d,Qh4h,Qs4s,Qc4c,7d4d,6d4d,5d4d,Ad3d,Qh3h,Qs3s,Qc3c,5d3d,4d3d,Qh2h,Qs2s,ATo,KTo,JTo,AdQh,AdQs,AdQc,AhQs,AhQc,AsQh,AsQc,AcQh,AcQs,KdQh,
KdQs,KdQc,KhQs,KhQc,KsQh,KsQc,KcQh,KcQs,KhJs,KhJc,KsJh,KsJc,KcJh,KcJs,QhJd,QhJs,QhJc,QsJd,QsJh,QsJc,QcJd,QcJh,QcJs,QhTs,QhTc,QsTh,QsTc,QcTh,QcTs,
Qh9d,Qh9s,Qh9c,Qs9d,Qs9h,Qs9c,Qc9d,Qc9h,Qc9s,Qh8d,Qh8s,Qh8c,Qs8d,Qs8h,Qs8c,Qc8d,Qc8h,Qc8s,Qh7d,Qh7s,Qh7c,Qs7d,Qs7h,Qs7c,Qc7d,Qc7h,Qc7s,
Qh6d,Qh6s,Qh6c,Qs6d,Qs6h,Qs6c,Qc6d,Qc6h,Qc6s,Qh5d,Qh5s,Qh5c,Qs5d,Qs5h,Qs5c,Qc5d,Qc5h,Qc5s,Qh4d,Qh4s,Qh4c,Qs4d,Qs4h,Qs4c,Qc4d,Qc4h,
Qc4s,Jh9s,Jh9c,Js9h,Js9c,Jc9h,Jc9s,Jh8s,Jh8c,Js8h,Js8c,Jc8h,Jc8s

I T9 doesnt seem to have 50%, I also didnt put in monster draws because if you dont hit the turn with them you need to check because it will cause a huge equity drop, and I think that ruins your ranges on the turn, so I rather have only those in the value range that have real showdown value.

As to the bluffs I wouldnt bluff every combo of KJ J9 and most FD-s, but bluff some Ax flushdraws for several reasons:

- I dont want too many flushdraws in this range because if its more than 20-25% than I think that on a turn you might run out of bluffs

- I dont want it to be too high card heavy either for the same reason, also I dont want to block too many cards that CO might fold somewhere. Thus I dont like xr-ing straight draws that have a also, to increase the likelihood that CO has a draw.

- and I want the bluff range to spread out on every possible turn and river card and cover as many of them as I can, and avoid that one card hits the range too much. That why I like having Ax FD-s with a weak kicker , so I can have the nut flush and backdoor straights in every possible way in my betdown range.

I wonder whats your opinion about this and what would you do on a K turn. What would be your turn c-bet/call range as the BB and your raising range as the CO ?

Hi!

Why would you think there should be max % of hands you can continue the flop...
If you dont have enough of them,that can be a problem since oponent can autoprofit by betting 100% of his range...but even that is only valid when oponents range is wide enough. If theoretically oponent has a range that crushes your range 100% then its totally correct to fold 100% and mistake to do anything else.

But if you continue with more hands than equalibrium I see absolutelly no problem in it. Extreme example would be in a scenario when you have a very premium range which crushes your oponent...obviously you wont fold any hand to his raise. This can be seen even better on further streets(in turn 3bet or caps) when ranges become very narrow, certainly you have spots when you dont fold any part of your range(and its correct). Here I think a hand like 33 certainly has enough equity to call the flop raise vs assumed range of unknown oponent.

Why would you think there should be max % of hands you can continue the flop.

Because if your opponent doesnt get enough folds from you, his bluffs become -EV, and he can change on his strategy by leaving the bluff hands and replacing them with value

If theoretically oponent has a range that crushes your range 100% then its totally correct to fold 100%

Theoretically this should never happen if the opponent plays perfectly

certainly you have spots when you dont fold any part of your range

In this case, your opponent should never bluff, but then you still can start folding because he doesnt bluff.

Here I think a hand like 33 certainly has enough equity to call the flop raise vs assumed range of unknown oponent.

What would be your plan for the turn and the river with 33 without a backdoor flushdraw ?

Originally posted by kavboj84

Why would you think there should be max % of hands you can continue the flop.

Because if your opponent doesnt get enough folds from you, his bluffs become -EV, and he can change on his strategy by leaving the bluff hands and replacing them with value

If theoretically oponent has a range that crushes your range 100% then its totally correct to fold 100%

Theoretically this should never happen if the opponent plays perfectly

certainly you have spots when you dont fold any part of your range

In this case, your opponent should never bluff, but then you still can start folding because he doesnt bluff.

Here I think a hand like 33 certainly has enough equity to call the flop raise vs assumed range of unknown oponent.

What would be your plan for the turn and the river with 33 without a backdoor flushdraw ?

1.True but before he figures it out it will take a while and in that time he will not exploit you. Also I would say 90%+ wont figure that out anytime.

2. Most players dont play balanced poker(that is a fact!) so I dont see why we would treat unknown as one.

3. Im sure that 99% of player have unbalanced spot. Im talking for example turn 4 bet situations or river 4bet spots. Do you really balance this spot with enough bluffs and folds and play him as a perfectly balanced player. So if you do then pls tell me which ranges would you go for relentless agression with on this board. For example which other hands would you play like QQ? (If you want to play a perfect poker then clearly you need some) If not, then what is the difference is being overly balanced in this spot or any other.

4. My default with 33 would be to calldown on good cards. So that means Im folding K,J,9,8,diamond turns for sure(A is debatable due to people get polorised a lot here imo)

1. SB does not need to exploit you. You automatically pay him off by confronting his value range too often. You loose money anyway, and this lands at SB.

2-3. The original assumption was that you play vs yourself, not vs another player.

4. I think then you might underfold the turn and the river as well, because the 7 and the 6 hits the bottom of your calling range as well and even on a 5 or less you cant fold some of those draws at the bottom because you need bluffs for the turn and the river as well. Tho turning 33 into bluff on some cards would'nt be a too far fetched idea because it blocks less cards from CO-s range. So you need to fold something somewhere so if you dont fold it hands like K9,A9-AJ is what you fold and these might have better equity that a naked 33

You still havent ansered my question on how you play QQ in this spot and which other hands you are playing the same.I would actually like to know that. Since if I understand the balance you actually must have a bluff in each part of the street. Since if you actually at some point only have QQ then u are unbalanced and oponent can develop a perfect strategy vs you.

I didnt assume Im playing vs myself that I agree, I assumed its another unknown situation. Well versus myself I would have to construct my ranges a lot different to begin with since I know my oponent perfectly so again I see very little point in that. What I see more point in, is analysing this vs assumed Laggy oponent who is capable of postflop play. So in this case we still dont know him perfectly but we have an idea about his play. But in this case Im pretty sure we developed some other sort of read and we have an idea of how he plays certain boards (is he fastplaying, slowplaying,.....). If we dont know these things then we either are not really good players or its because we didnt yet play this guy long enough to even be sure he is what we assumed.

I think that such reads all these discussion on these forums lack and Im telling this in a constructive manner. I rly see no reason to develop overbalanced strategy vs unknown players who are 99,9% not going to be playing a perfect game.

But ok if you still would like me to construct ranges vs myself I will do in my next post.

I'm waiting for:

"I wouldn't have ranges vs myself because screw giving away rake"

Interesting spot for sure

@Boomer2k10 :

yeah my goal in life is to see regs open folding vs me at the tables cause they cant work out profitable ranges vs me, or to read excuses on why not to play good poker.

@Dawnfall26

I didnt answer because I think its completely irrelevant. First see my previous post, secondly the comparison is way exegerated. You know, once I worked as a software test engineer, and there the defects you find in a software are distinguished by severity, i.e. by the harm they cause, and I think the same is true for poker. The more severe a bug is, the higher priority it has for fixing it. And a leak in your flop xr or calldown range is a lot more severe than the one in your river 4bet range, because a flop xr happens 1000x more often than a river 4bet (to be honest I dont remember if I 4bet the river in the past 6 months) . And if you think that if you cant be balanced in every minor spot then you should not be balanced at all, then IMO your reasoning lacks the least amount of logic that it could contain. But I promise when I will have all my larger leaks than my river 4bet range fixed , I will come up with a balanced range in this spot too.

I dont think its irrelavant since spots where you get 3bet on turn or river are not that rare. Also I think people here are way too unbalanced so mastering these spots can gain u a lot of profit.
But my main point with this is that I guess you dont really play in this spots like he was a perfect player but for some reason you do want to play like that in other spots. Ranges are ranges and its irrelavant which street it is so I kindda see that as a problem with it.

But yes I agree,if you think its important to do these things then by all means master them:) Also appologies if I may came out rude,was not my intention its just that I disagree and one of the few that is actually still active on these forums:)

gl

No problemo, everyone can have his own thinking/opinion and I like discussing/arguing these topics, but I really thought that it had nothing to do with the original subject, and I didnt want to go into any kind of shadow boxing stuff, but concentrate only on the answers I was interested in.

Sry guys for the late response. What i can definitely say is that i'd rather call with some K8 A6 A7 A8 with A♦ than i'd like to call with 33 44 on the Flop. The smallest Pocketpairs like 22-55 (dont know where exactly we should draw the line) i would fold and i know some similiar spots where schiep (hes been playing nosebleeds fl for quite a while) mentioned b/f the flop as well and recommended to take the hands i mentioned. Kx and Ax have the same showdownvalue but still outs to improve so the small pocketpairs are the worst choice when it comes to select hands to continue with on a board with 2 overcards like J93 or QTx. I usually c/c Ax Flushdraws or cr the flop and check the Turn when he didnt fold out the hands i wanted him to fold like the small PP's. With T9 T8 i mix it up between c/c and c/c and try not being too tight so i'd discount those hands out of your range.

On K♦ i would bet most of my hands. In a vakuum probably not T9 and Q9. Hands i cannot barrel off with and dont want to see a raise on the Turn but where i still have outs to improve. But my flushdraws and J9 as well as KJ hit this turn well so i think we have enough boardcoverage that we can still bet and we'll usually get a honest response. Maybe c/c some weak Qx with FD and JT with and b/f the weak Queens without a

Being in the BB i would checkraise KJ and J9 and the Flushdraws and just c/c with the weak Gutshots like J8 and 89 and hope that i may get a freecard on the Flop in order to bluff him out on the River. So my c/c Range contains showdownvalue with Ax, it contains small Pairs and Tx and it contains weakish draws. So i think it's a well balanced c/c Range.

Its not easy but relatively ease to design ranges for just 1 street but the more you progress on to further streets of turn and River, its becoming complex and its a lot work to do to redesign your ranges and make a reasonable distribution all throughout your opportunities (c/c b/c b/f c/r etc) and most importantly vary it by the different turncards.

Compliment to kavboj84 that you're so willing to dive deeply into it.