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NL100 - A4o: playing AXo from SB against players that defend a lot.

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Lunitis
Joined: 22.02.2009

47% fold BB vs SB steal
33% fold vs cbet flop , 23% fold vs cbet turn, small smaple river, BB vs SB steal
15% raise flop, 14% raise turn BB vs SB
47% bet flop vs missed +70% bet turn BB vs SB
47% wwsf
35k hands

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $100 (100 bb)
BB: $82.93 (82.9 bb)
UTG: $156.88 (156.9 bb)
MP: $193.45 (193.5 bb)
CO: $86.99 (87 bb)
BTN: $106.33 (106.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4 A
4 folds, Hero raises to $3, BB calls $2

Against these bastards i open 3bbs (2.6 normally) and a stronger range. WIth AXo weak i feel like folding because it plays badly dont hits often, but that sounds weak. How do you play AXo against playes that defend a lot pre and posflop in this spot? Whats the plan? Total war (c/raises, triples barrels...) or stick with the hand only if we hit decent/good boards?


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6 replies
jules97
Joined: 10.06.2012

total war with no equity OOP sounds costly

it's a marginal open, it's going to make marginal money, by far the most of it is when villain folds preflop.

When you see a flop, you need to realize about 30% equity for it to be worth opening, hand should have about 50%. So it's borderline, but doable playing straightforward. You could just fold preflop. Even if you play really it well, it's only worth about 1/4 of a bb.


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

I dont think you can apply this "30% equity ralization" to know if the hand is +EV in general. Imo it is super approximated estimation which is hardly applied in practice. Especially not vs this guy.
It doesnt matter if you cf too often vs him with this hand and thus you dont realize your equity that often, if when you hit and barrel 3 streets big he calls you down light.
My default strategy vs such guys would be give up mostly when I dont hit, since I dont have +EV bluffs, and if I have draw to bet flop and overbet turn, or bet flop and turn, and overbet river. If he comes on each street with so weak range, he will have trouble defending, so he will have to ovefold. If he doesnt, then you will benefit a lot with having value heavy overbet range, and playing for stacks when you hit TPGK+


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jules97
Joined: 10.06.2012

Originally posted by GingerKid
I dont think you can apply this "30% equity ralization" to know if the hand is +EV in general. Imo it is super approximated estimation which is hardly applied in practice. Especially not vs this guy.

its just maths, not an estimation

just put in the amount you win in bb when he folds, the amount you lose when 3b's and then come up with a % of the pot you have to win when he calls.

in this case (assuming fold to 3b of 50% and 3b of 15%), if you can win about 30% of the pot on average when u see a flop, it's going to be slightly profitable, and if you can only win 20% of the pot it's going to be slightly minus EV.
So if you think you can do it, do it, if not don't. that simple


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serverm07
Joined: 08.08.2012

This is a pretty easy open vs someone who folds 47% from BB. By the way when you post spots like these you should also include how often he flats vs 3bets not just folds. If you are playing dynamic ranges, meaning you make some quick adjustments in your head while playing, typically against guys with high 3bet and low flat hands with blockers are more important, typically against guys that flat a lot and don't 3bet as much, suited hands will perform better. It's not an exact science but a starting point on how to pick hands.

GK, Jules is talking about equity realization which is now commonly used to determine how much the hand is worth. If you ask 10 different people about it the all might come up with different answers. The equity realization number is higher if the guy is passive, lower if he is aggressive obv makes sense. If I'm reading correctly Jules thinks the hand only has 50% equity realization here, so like he said you would multiply for example 15% (the times he 3bets) that's how much you lose when he 3bets given you plan to fold, multiply 47% by 1, that's how often you win the 1bb when he folds. And then you just have to see how much of the $6 pot you have to win to do better than folding. I always open all Axo fwiw.


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

its just maths, not an estimation

just put in the amount you win in bb when he folds, the amount you lose when 3b's and then come up with a % of the pot you have to win when he calls.

in this case (assuming fold to 3b of 50% and 3b of 15%), if you can win about 30% of the pot on average when u see a flop, it's going to be slightly profitable, and if you can only win 20% of the pot it's going to be slightly minus EV.
So if you think you can do it, do it, if not don't. that simple

This looks to me as wrong calculation. Please correct me if I am wrong.
You calculated that we need to win about 30% of the pot on average when u see a flop, but thats not correct. That would be only correct if both players check down 100% of time. Since on flop, turn and river, you invest your money by calling/raising what ever, then if you on the river win only 30% of the pot in average, you will end up burning money.

Example:

Flop pot = 10$
Villian bets 10$, hero checks 10$

Turn pot = 30$
Villian bets 30$ hero calls 30$

River pot = 90$
Villian bets 90$ hero calls 90$.

final pot 270$.

So in this hand pot is 270$. If hero would on average win 30%, it would mean he would win on average 0.3 * 270$ = 81$
Since he invested preflop 5$, and postflop 130$, and in final pot won on average 81$, then it is clear burning money.
So I guess either you formulated it wrong, or I understood your formulation wrongly.

So I would formulate it other way:
Our flop EV should be 30% of the pot.

So this statement differs a lot from the statement winning the pot 30% of the time. And calculating the EV of the flop, is likely requiring solving a poker game, so I would say this preflop math is likely unusable.


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serverm07
Joined: 08.08.2012

GK I think you did this with me as well, misunderstanding the post.


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