Too loose calling?

Hi Zhuvyte

3-bet preflop here and attack all that dead money. Calling and playing 4-way OOP with this offsuiite hand won't be fun at all.

As played bet/fold smaller on the river if you are betting. He hardly has much worse that can pay up there but vs most guys you can just ck/fold. What range do you really have him on there?

With a bet on the river we try to extract value from KJs and KTs? Isn't it better to ch/fold river?

OK, this one seems to be a discussion-sparker

Bogdan - recently I started to use kind of a mental-thought approach to every hand I play (well, at least I try to do that). Before every move I ask - "what I want my opponent to do?". Then I base my action on this answer - that is, I choose an action which is likely to give me the desired result or just give up the hand if I see I can't. Could it be treated as a correct approach for the NL25+ game?

PRE
I want: everybody to fold and collect the dead money (since I don't want to be in multiway pot OOP with unsuited KQ).
Action: I called.
Outcome: Got lucky to hit a pair, but overall it was too weak play. I guess I was afraid that UTG raiser is not folding anyway.

FLOP
I want: Everybody to check - that way I could think I'm holding the best hand and start getting value on turn.
Action: check-call
Outcome: After the UTG bet (quite small, but I guess it's normal in multiway situation) I'm thinking he has Kx.

TURN
I want: him to check behind, indicating that he, indeed, doesn't have Kx and was c-betting with air (or a weak pair). I also don't want to run into a raise by betting myself, as I would have to fold a hand that I'm happy to see showdown with.
Action: check
Outcome: He's confirming he has Kx (or better).

RIVER
I want: him to call a small bet with weaker Kx/other pair. I also want not to risk a lot if he raises and I need to fold (I can't call a raise here and expect to win, do I?).
Action: I bet. Small I thought, but seems it could be smaller, maybe 1/3.
Outcome: I run into AK, which was likely, having in mind that he started the action in UTG.

RIVER LOGIC: I prefer a bet here due to my logic, my please correct me if I'm wrong here, since I'm doing it a lot in my game. By betting I increase my overall probability to win. I have a fixed amount of chance to win the river on showdown here, let's say it's 35%, given the ranges.
If I bet and he calls - it's still 35%.
If I bet and he folds (it's unlikely, but possible for him to fold a better hand here, at least sometimes I think - let's say 15%) - it becomes 50%.

Hi,
I am not a good player, but some things in your thinking bother me.
Apart from the question : what I want my opponent to do?, you have to ask yourself a bunch of other questions - positions, ranges, connectivity with board, what is he representing, what you want to represent...etc.

Pre-flop:
How can this happen - you want to collect the dead money and that's why you call. These are 2 completely opposite things. If you want to collect the dead money and not to play in a multiway pot - you have to narrow the opposition by raising pre-fop.

Flop:
You want everybody to check, but that's not what UTG wants, right? I want to be a millionaire but....

Turn:
Man, he breaks all your wishes - you want him to check, but guess what - evreyone who have bet the flop 4 way is betting on this card.

And now the river: You want him to call with weaker Kx, but they are lesser than the stronger Kx. So there's no reason to bet.
I think check/fold is better as you will lose more money than you win in the long run.

Good luck at the tables.

I like this type of discussion here because it tells me how you think. This allows me to provide you with a much better answer

Pre: you see that you've done your first mistake. Good

Flop: another possibly wrong approach. What you want is to get value for your hand from the weaker opponents/ranges. This includes the fish first and foremost. Check/calling implies that you hope one of them would bet 4-way here and that they do it wide enough.

Turn: he doesn't necessarly confirm that he has Kx or better but rather that he has a strong range. That can include some backdoor club draws but mostly good hands.

River: Another mistake. You say Kx or weaker pair... but wait a second. There is no weaker pair because you, yourself, said that he has Kx or better on the turn. Furthermore how many weaker Kx can he really have? he opened UTG so maybe some KJ?

Count the better hands AK+ and count the weaker possible hands... he has a LOT more better hands than weaker ones... a lot more.

So do this math (counting combos) and you'll see for yourself how far off you are.

And I like getting an answer like that, now every aspect of playing this hand is clear for me

Thank you.