NL20 SH Speed KTs, Preflop 4bet, Flop OESD

Your 4bet preflop is as a bluff right?
On turn you do not have a call with 4 clear outs.

Originally posted by nitrol
Your 4bet preflop is as a bluff right?

Yes, it's a bluff, of course.

Do not fallinto the trap of bluffing preflop and fighting for every pot postflop then.

I don't understand the defend, against an unknown is it not assumed that they're 3betting fairly straightforward and therefore KJ, KQ are even ahead of you? Seems marginal, and when 4 betting when you consider your value range are you not 100% cbetting? AA 4 bet and don't continue seems uncommon.

Originally posted by WhiteWalker
I don't understand the defend, against an unknown is it not assumed that they're 3betting fairly straightforward and therefore KJ, KQ are even ahead of you? Seems marginal, and when 4 betting when you consider your value range are you not 100% cbetting? AA 4 bet and don't continue seems uncommon.

I don't have a problem that KQ and KJ are ahead because I'm bluffing. If KQ and KJ folds, fine by me. We could argue if 4bet bluffing is mandatory vs unknowns at this limit, but this is another story. I'm folding too much to 3bets atm, so have to find some spots where I can defend even against unknowns. Vs aggressive 3bettor, this hand would probably be a decent candidate for flatting, so I decided to 4bet bluff there since I expect it to be profiable by default vs average player.

It's also true that I will cbet my value range there 100%, so probably OESD might be a good hand for cbet bluffing. What bothers me is that this is a 4bet pot and I'm not sure if I can bluff because I don't know if I have any fold equity vs unknown who calls 4bets oop. In adittion, If I give him a range, this flop probably hits him quite well. So, overall, maybe this is a spot where I have to give up postflop because my preflop action was profitable by default.

overall WP

preflop could be close, should be a call vs anyone not nitty and we don't have to stack off post to three barrells - however vs unknown go with population read, vs someone tighter would rather 4bet suited aces as you block more

post flop well played, flop we can bet polorized, likely hands with low equity or hands your getting it with as it sucks to get blown off our equity to a check raise

turn standard call with OESD and sometimes a king is also good on the river when it check to us, especially to half pot bet. I also think the half pot betsize could reduce likelihood of sets on that texture

river looks like value bet so yeah probably fold. Could be an interesting spot to raise because we don't block any of the missed Ax flush draws but at these stakes probably more a fold because usually people aren't 3betting enough therefore not flatting 4bets enough therefore ranges are tight and we don't know if villian is betting his busted draws OTR, also I assume we are likely not balanced to have any value hands to raise

Originally posted by nitrol
On turn you do not have a call with 4 clear outs.

we have more than 4 outs, VS AQ/AJ,Ax fd we have 10 outs and good implied on a A (some flush outs may be tainted), vs a set we got 8 with good implied

I hate when people are fast writers and not slow readers.
I clearly wrote 4 CLEAR outs. Clear, means no matter what. Yeah, they can become more UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES but as you yourself cannot define what are you playing against this is marginal.
The K out is meh.

You say we have 10 outs - 10 outs means around 20-23% equity. We do not have that in pot odds. And what would you do if 9h/9c hit the river?

See this:
MP2 19.35% KdTd
MP3 80.65% QQ-TT, AQs+, AQo+

imo folding the turn with OESD and this much money in the pot is tight, especially to a half pot bet

Yes there are some cards we potentially have revere implied odds against but there are also cards we have good implied against, like a set or two pair with an ace on the river is likely not folding and we are getting paid, we can make good decisions on the river in position

I did read & understand what you wrote originally about 4 clear outs, the other 4 outs bringing a flush but i thought it was a little too pessimistic assessment to make it a clear fold and discussed calling option