Flat calling 4-bet with KK

I would shove pre.

You call pre , because you are afraid of AA, but then why you shove OTF, if you think that he has AA? What worse hands will call your shove?

Fair point, it was probably overly timid of me to call rather than shove.

I like the idea of shoving preflop.
I do not like the push on flop.

People generally do not 4bet bluff on the UTG and when they 4bet, they usually want to get it in. So, with KK I would just shove. We can't assume that he always has AA. As played, shoving and calling the flop are both fine, imo. Even against AA, we have 28% equity and pot odds to call are 27%.

So calling is better. In fact,ifwe hit our draw the board will be scary.

Now I would point that your sample is way too small so even the global VPIP and PFR are to be taken with a pinch of salt. The positional ones, the 3bet or more and the post flop stats are pretty much irrelevant with 130 hands.

But lets assume he is tight with the information you have

what is his range pre?
QQ+ AK
if you are lucky add JJ

with the flop it hits his range totally ... you might want to peel the flop with K♥: for the nut FD but tbh you don't even have the odds so as played pre it's a tight fold post IMO.
preflop though I have rarely an issue 5bet shoving KK unless I have a very very strong read that he only have AA there in which case it's again better folding than calling.

Originally posted by nitrol
So calling is better. In fact,ifwe hit our draw the board will be scary.

What if we don't hit our draw though? Our hand gets considerably worse and the pot is too inflated. I prefer just getting it in on the flop, but clearly I should have just jammed it pre.

Originally posted by thazar
Now I would point that your sample is way too small so even the global VPIP and PFR are to be taken with a pinch of salt. The positional ones, the 3bet or more and the post flop stats are pretty much irrelevant with 130 hands.

But lets assume he is tight with the information you have

what is his range pre?
QQ+ AK
if you are lucky add JJ

with the flop it hits his range totally ... you might want to peel the flop with K♥: for the nut FD but tbh you don't even have the odds so as played pre it's a tight fold post IMO.
preflop though I have rarely an issue 5bet shoving KK unless I have a very very strong read that he only have AA there in which case it's again better folding than calling.

I agree we hit his range well on this board but even vs. QQ+ AK+ on this flop don't we have decent enough equity?

Assuming he doesn't cbet QQ/KK here it's a fold though.

Our hand gets considerably worse and the pot is too inflated. I prefer just getting it in on the flop, but clearly I should have just jammed it pre.

Why do we want to get it in on the flop as an underdog? We don't have fold equity vs his value range, we can't raise for value and we don't need protection vs his bluffs if he even has any (too nitty).

Allen

shoving and calling the flop are both fine, imo. Even against AA, we have 28% equity and pot odds to call are 27%.

- I would have thought this makes going all in much worse than calling? Why commit our stack as a dog when we nearly have correct odds to call in position and sometimes turn goes x/x so we can realise more equity for less. The reason for shoving draws is the generate fold equity to make the hand equity+fold equity +EV... here IMO we have low FE and nearly enough HE so call, but maybe i'm not considering the turn action in the calc? I guess shoving can't be horrible as we have nut redraw but vs someone who's range is so strong not sure, the merits to shoving is that when we call and hit we don't get paid

I don't get why you're shoving the flop, sketch? Would you mind explaining? You have no FE against a better hand, the only hands that are folding you have crushed, and the only hands that are calling have you crushed. It's a WA/WB situation, you're just value towning yourself shipping it and turning your hand into a semi-bluff. You have to pot odds to draw to the flush, and he may slow down on the turn.

As played, I'm pretty sure you should call the flop and then fold to a turn bet unless the turn is a or K. That gives you 11 outs, you probably won't get paid very often, but still enough to make it a profitable call. And he presumably checks the turn sometimes (e.g. with QQ). Unless you really think he has exactly AA, in which case you probably have to fold, but then you should have folded in pre.

Originally posted by Castle93
I don't get why you're shoving the flop, sketch? Would you mind explaining? You have no FE against a better hand, the only hands that are folding you have crushed, and the only hands that are calling have you crushed. It's a WA/WB situation, you're just value towning yourself shipping it and turning your hand into a semi-bluff. You have to pot odds to draw to the flush, and he may slow down on the turn.

I guess now I've come to this point I can't explain it, that's why I posted it here. My reasoning at the time doesn't hold up, I thought i had decent fold equity but most folds are worse hands anyway.

More I read the comments, more I vote for just calling the flop. As I said above, even if we assume that he always has AA, we have odds to call, so not sure what would be a reason to fold, as some of the guys suggest. Basically, we are investing 27% to get 28% back. If he has AK, AQ there, it's even more. If we shove, we will most likelly be behind his calling range. So, our shove could not be for value. Maybe he is calling Q♥Q or J♥J, but probably not. Then, it also could not be a successfull bluff because no better hands that are folding.

Originally posted by sketchzr

Originally posted by nitrol
So calling is better. In fact,ifwe hit our draw the board will be scary.

What if we don't hit our draw though? Our hand gets considerably worse and the pot is too inflated. I prefer just getting it in on the flop, but clearly I should have just jammed it pre.

The flop will be too inflated so we are going to jam...
A bit contradictory.

Ok so if you thought preflop you were up against AA for sure then you should fold. On the flop even an single ace is in front and which hands do you think are going to fold? The flopped flush, top pair, top set? Always good to think about why we do things and what it is exactly you are trying to achieve with your action. It is not clear here from start to finish what you were thinking/your reasoning behind your actions.