AA - 2 streets donkbet multiway

Heads up, it would be very close (assuming a good donker). Three-ways I think a turn fold is fine since no draws can be bet for value (like some draws can on the flop), and bluffing 2 opponents is (should be) rare.

Okay thanks

And what about below :

similar flop :

I 3bet because OOP and blockers for broadways. Cbet standard because flop hit.
But then he raises. Don't really see any hands in there that I beat except A♦:K♦:

Think fold is fine

MP: $10.00 (VPIP: 19.44, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 38)
MP+1: $9.19 (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
CO: $24.30 (VPIP: 24.09, PFR: 16.97, 3Bet Preflop: 5.98, Hands: 670)
BTN: $11.25 (VPIP: 10.57, PFR: 7.32, 3Bet Preflop: 4.00, Hands: 126)
SB: $10.00 (VPIP: 11.59, PFR: 9.14, 3Bet Preflop: 2.39, Hands: 1,025)
Hero (BB): $10.00
UTG: $4.52 (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
UTG+1: $10.00 (VPIP: 20.28, PFR: 11.91, 3Bet Preflop: 3.42, Hands: 719)

SB posts SB $0.05, Hero posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has Q♣ K♠
fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.25, fold, Hero raises to $0.70, BTN calls $0.45

Flop: ($1.45, 2 players) 8♦ Q♠ 7♦
Hero bets $0.96, BTN raises to $2.61, fold

Originally posted by YohanN7
Heads up, it would be very close (assuming a good donker). Three-ways I think a turn fold is fine since no draws can be bet for value (like some draws can on the flop), and bluffing 2 opponents is (should be) rare.

I don't think it is necessary a bluff; At NL10, most monsters do check raise here (Not all but most), and by monster I'd say >=2 pairs

I think the majority of hands you will see there are AQ, KQ and JQ , and the occasional monster. I would also exclude the majority of flopped flush draws because of the bet sizes.

so to summarise, I would include very few monster of monster (let's say for calculating 3 combos of sets + 3 combos of 2pairs), all AQ + KQ + QJ, and 2 combos of club FDs.

I would personally shove the turn and expect to be called often enough by top pair.

Originally posted by schelleXL
Okay thanks

And what about below :

similar flop :

I 3bet because OOP and blockers for broadways. Cbet standard because flop hit.
But then he raises. Don't really see any hands in there that I beat except A♦:K♦:

Think fold is fine

MP: $10.00 (VPIP: 19.44, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 38)
MP+1: $9.19 (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
CO: $24.30 (VPIP: 24.09, PFR: 16.97, 3Bet Preflop: 5.98, Hands: 670)
BTN: $11.25 (VPIP: 10.57, PFR: 7.32, 3Bet Preflop: 4.00, Hands: 126)
SB: $10.00 (VPIP: 11.59, PFR: 9.14, 3Bet Preflop: 2.39, Hands: 1,025)
Hero (BB): $10.00
UTG: $4.52 (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
UTG+1: $10.00 (VPIP: 20.28, PFR: 11.91, 3Bet Preflop: 3.42, Hands: 719)

SB posts SB $0.05, Hero posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has Q♣ K♠
fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.25, fold, Hero raises to $0.70, BTN calls $0.45

Flop: ($1.45, 2 players) 8♦ Q♠ 7♦
Hero bets $0.96, BTN raises to $2.61, fold

Spoiler

BTN wins $3.22

On this hand I think it is a very good fold, without any more info, indeed you don't beat much. he might have a few flush draws but even then you are not that far ahead.

KQ, AQ,QJ do you think he cant have? I think he can play this way too

Originally posted by thazar

Originally posted by YohanN7
Heads up, it would be very close (assuming a good donker). Three-ways I think a turn fold is fine since no draws can be bet for value (like some draws can on the flop), and bluffing 2 opponents is (should be) rare.

I don't think it is necessary a bluff; At NL10, most monsters do check raise here (Not all but most), and by monster I'd say >=2 pairs

I think the majority of hands you will see there are AQ, KQ and JQ , and the occasional monster. I would also exclude the majority of flopped flush draws because of the bet sizes.

so to summarise, I would include very few monster of monster (let's say for calculating 3 combos of sets + 3 combos of 2pairs), all AQ + KQ + QJ, and 2 combos of club FDs.

I would personally shove the turn and expect to be called often enough by top pair.

You may be right. I am, as I said, assuming a competent donker. (By the way, this illustrates why the big donk with nuts and very good draws is such a good play versus thinking oppoents because they often read it wrong and react the wrong way (they raise with bluff catchers).)

the question is after 28 hands at NL10, can we assume or better should we assume that he is a competent donker. Or going one level of thinking further can we assume that he know that we are a thinking opponent?

On this basis I prefer to assume the opposite and play the hand straight forward. with reads it all changes

OOps, I am confused now. We are talking about the hand in OP, right?

The straightforward play would in that case be to call turn i m o. We have some $1 invested and $9 to go. What do you expect to call a more-than-pot-AI here? No flush draws to be sure (unless he is utterly non-thinking:D).

Thanks for the insights

2 questions

1/ you say shove turn : I think het would continue then with this range :
87s, 88-77, AQo, 87o, AcKc, AcJc, KhQh, QcJc, QhJh

That gives me 44/56 odds : is that good enough to shove ?

2/ would we call a 3rd barrel on the river if a brick ?

thanks

He shouldn't be calling a shove getting less than 2:1 with either of AcKc, AcJc, KhQh, QcJc, QhJh other than as a bluff catcher. This means he'll should rarely with these, in particular because you raise rather than bet; you aren't bluffing much.

with a VPIP of 7.14 is he calling out the BB with unsuited connectors?
7.4% is 88+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, AQo+
I guess even if hes a really tight player he is going to like those pot odds pre flop with a wider range, but is he as wide as 87o?

I think its more likely he has a Qx hand and is donking to stop flushes get there, that is very common at this level I find

About initial hand, I think villain can do this with Qx as he is afraid of checked flop and a club on river.

Originally posted by schelleXL
Okay thanks

And what about below :

similar flop :

I 3bet because OOP and blockers for broadways. Cbet standard because flop hit.
But then he raises. Don't really see any hands in there that I beat except A♦:K♦:

Think fold is fine

MP: $10.00 (VPIP: 19.44, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 38)
MP+1: $9.19 (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
CO: $24.30 (VPIP: 24.09, PFR: 16.97, 3Bet Preflop: 5.98, Hands: 670)
BTN: $11.25 (VPIP: 10.57, PFR: 7.32, 3Bet Preflop: 4.00, Hands: 126)
SB: $10.00 (VPIP: 11.59, PFR: 9.14, 3Bet Preflop: 2.39, Hands: 1,025)
Hero (BB): $10.00
UTG: $4.52 (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
UTG+1: $10.00 (VPIP: 20.28, PFR: 11.91, 3Bet Preflop: 3.42, Hands: 719)

SB posts SB $0.05, Hero posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has Q♣ K♠
fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.25, fold, Hero raises to $0.70, BTN calls $0.45

Flop: ($1.45, 2 players) 8♦ Q♠ 7♦
Hero bets $0.96, BTN raises to $2.61, fold

Spoiler

BTN wins $3.22

Fold vs the raise is right. There are a bunch of hands that beat us and draws that have good equity vs us.

First hand you posted

I actually don't like the fold here. The likelihood of a monster here(monster in this case being a set or two pair) is very unlikely here. He's on a draw. I think you should have made a nice size on the flop. The 5♥: on the turn doesn't really change anything either. Unless he has 64 or 69. Which again, is very unlikely in this spot. Sometimes people overplay and overvalue their AA, and sometimes people underplay and undervalue their AA. And in this spot I think you underplayed and undervalued them.

Second hand you posted

Here, I like the fold. There are a lot of hands that beat you in this spot. As well as strong draws with good odds and equity against you here.

Okay thanks

Hand 1 : last questions :

1/ shouldn't we be more inclined to fold because of the fact that we are multiway
2/ do we call a 3rd barrel
- on a ?
- on a K/J ?
- on a Q ?
- on a blank ?

1: Yes, we should - a lot more than people acknowledge. His first bet could very well be Qx. The second big bet hints that it isn't. Anyone who fires on turn after the pot was bet big multiway on the flop with more than one caller must be taken seriously. This is basic hand reading and relatively reliable.

2: You are on your own here. Also, it is vital to know if SB is still hanging around (for the same reason as in Q1). Cut the chance that he is bluffing/weak by 75% (or something like that) if there is a third barrel 3-ways.

1. Yes, you should. Betting mw is strong and continuing after the field is thin is strong.
2. Do not think we should call third barrel here.