QQ NL5 SH ZOOM

I will just raise flop.

Flop is pretty dry apart from the FD. I might raise here sometimes and sometimes I call but I think a raise is better for value as we'd rather have villain calls once every x times for max value than get each time minimum value by just calling.

I would raise OTF. As played this is max value you can get. I don't think it is a good plan to donk turn and I doubt villain will call any bigger bet OTR with a weaker hand.

I would be 4-betting pre-flop tbh. If you ever plan on 4-bet bluffing, it is a good idea to have hands like QQ, KK, and AA in your 4-bet value range for balance. Also, this way you have the betting lead if villain flats the 4-bet.

On the flop I would raise. Calling is okay, but a raise will get value from FDs, AQ, KK and AA as none of those hands can fold anyways. (Maybe apart from FD).

It's probably finely played; I don't mind raising the flop but it's not a play you'll want to do often at higher stakes. In terms of balance, you'll be check/calling this flop with a fairly wide range of hands (most pps, Qx, etc). I don't even know if it makes sense to c/r flush draws on this texture. C/r-ing is fine at lower stakes because AA/KK isn't folding and you also aren't going to face as many bluffs on later streets as you would at higher stakes; but be sure to think about this play more when you play higher.

yea, exactly, at nl5 it is raise on F

You should ve 4betted preflop. If not then you should ve raised the flop. If you want to extract value in the river a pot bet isnt that good unless he is a fish. You chose the worst way to play your hand

I think you should've re-raised pre-flop and lead on the flop.

As played pre-flop, you can either donk bet on the flop or check/raise, since it was likely that villain would c-bet. But I don't think you should just call, you have the best possible hand, that could still be beaten.

On the turn, as played the flop, you should bet, if villain wasn't on a flush draw on the turn, he might be now and by just checking, you're letting him see the river card for free.

The river bet, as played the flop and turn I think was OK, but smaller would also be ok.

An alterative line: If you are up against a reg, just donk. He is all but guaranteed to misplay any strong hand like KQ from then on. It is worth it to try this line for evaluation. What you risk is essentially a c-bet on his part that may or may not come if he has nothing. If he has at least a medium pair, he'll call your donk, maybe even raise it to "protect" his hand.

The "standard" line would be to just check-raise flop, and gradually get it in. Check-raising turn is usually going too tricky. The above line is the opposite of tricky. No guarantee that it is optimal, my sample is too small (since I started with this experiment), but it seems to work beyond expectation versus regs for me.

I dont think thats going to work in this hand. CO 3betted preflop, so he shouldnt have that medium pair you are talking about

Originally posted by luchoprat
I dont think thats going to work in this hand. CO 3betted preflop, so he shouldnt have that medium pair you are talking about

Right. Then he has a bigger pp or hit the Q. So much better. Either way he is usually fried. The downside is when he is enterprising enough to 3-bet 87s and the like. Then you (perhaps) miss a c-bet. Big deal. You want his stack, not the c-bet.

I understand your point, I personally think it works on single raised pots and maybe, just maybe in the blinds if we are talking about 3bet pots. This is MP vs CO we dont know his 3bet, if its something like 4-5% you want to donk becuase he can have AA or KK? Thats 0.6% of 4%, close to 1 out of 7 times, if he connected a flush draw the chance to get a flush draw holding 2 suited is around 11%. Because of that i think in this kind of hand you are gonna encounter a lot of folds if you take the donk line

3-bet pots are decidedly better than single raised pots because

• His range is stronger
• He has something to protect (his 3-bet)

Otherwise you are right, except that he'll at least call with every pair once. (You donked after all and must be a bad player trying to steal.) You miss out on some c-bets that may or may not come. You trade small many small "losses" for few stack offs. Does it work out in the long run? Like I said before, I don't know yet. But I do know that people are taught to be sure to "protect" their hands by raising donks, committing themselves (at PS!). This board here is not optimal. Throw in a straight draw along with the flush draw and you get raised/stacked off by all pairs Q and better, guaranteed. This is not so easy to achieve with a check-raise which is more representing great strength.

I agree that donks can be tricky in this kind of spot. The thing im talking about is this board. What could be his 3bet range? KK+ or QQ+ and bluffs. QQ+/KK+ are going to bet that flop and the bluffs if his cbet is high, he can still bet his bluffs. So in this particular case i believe that any hand that is going to call the donk is a hand that was going to bet on the flop and you are gonna make him fold some bluffs that he could have cbetted

There is nothing wrong with your logic. We might disagree on the numbers slightly. It is close.

Also, the discussion here is very related to our other discussion. Essentially, I hope that villain is losing his stack with a non-nut hand. My view in the other hand is that there we should avoid losing our stack with a flop AI where you have villain as a fish. Can you see the connection?