T9s 3way backdoor FD vs big bet. Can I check raise?

Preflopis ok.
I do not like your flop pay. Board is dry, Kxx and there is no need to xr.

I think too that it is better to bluff raise nut BD, like Axh, but also I think what exact FD, BDFD you are raising as bluff is not that important and you can mix in all of them. Just make sure you are raising amount of bluffs needed to balance your value hands on this board.(here it is probably 22 and 44).
If you need to defend 9Ts or not depends on your range. Both MP and you need to defend 60% here at minimum, against CO bet. MP won't be defending very often, so let's say he is defending 15-20% of the time. You need then defend 40-45% of the range. Put your range in flopzilla or equilab, and see what are the best 45% hands you are willing to defend from your range on this board.
Of course you don't always need to defend 1-a, when you has equity and nut advantage you can defend more and vice versa. But here I think neither of CO and you has some significant advantage, so you can defend 1-a.
Overally I'd say it's borderline hand here and taking into account that opp bet bigger sizing than population here on overall I'd probably just folded in game. But also you need to defend some of your BDFD on this board. Axh would be better if you call them here.

Originally posted by nitrol
Preflopis ok.
I do not like your flop pay. Board is dry, Kxx and there is no need to xr.

so fold flop? what does it change that it is Kxx? I think if we have 44, 22 we are check raising still to get value from draws even if the flop is dry. Especially 3way it increases likelyhood of draws.

Of course we do not need that many bluff when there are just few hands which we are checkraising. I am afraid that I might be folding too often. But maybe as you said Kxx, we have lot of Kx in the range to protect vs cbets - KQ-KTs, KJo.

22,44 are not xr here. Why would they xr? To fold all weaker hands that will bet 1-2 more streets? They will xr on wet board...

Originally posted by nitrol
22,44 are not xr here. Why would they xr? To fold all weaker hands that will bet 1-2 more streets? They will xr on wet board...

To get calls from draws. Which weaker hands are we folding? KQ? Then does it not mean that same weaker hands will fold to c/r with T9s? I would think that then c/r might be good. I think there are lot of weak top pairs and lower hands which would be good to fold.

Axh would be better if you call them here.

I completely agree that Axh would be better. But I need to find what is the minimum hand

But yea, you tell good that I need to put on equilab a range and see the best hands which ones to call, which ones to raise.

I am not sure what is raising ratio, its 2 bluffs 1 value on flop?

And yea, bigger bet size in 3way might be a good sign of strenght here actually.

Do you make a difference between the draws you have in this board and the draws you have on KcTc9h for example.
When you xr on this dry board you will fold QQ-99, some low Kx and some of theweak FDs.
It is not such a good idea to xr on dry boards.

Preflop call is standard imo. We have great odds to call when multi-way, but this would be a standard call even vs 1 raiser. I don't like flop check/raise tbh. People tend to be more honest when multi-way, so they don't bluff cbet as much as heads-up, which means we don't have alot of fold equity. We also don't have a very good equity if called because our backdoors are quite weak. In general, I'm not sure we will have alot of hands to check/raise with multi-way. With a good draw and mid strenght hands we can check/call and with backdoors (or weak draws) and strong hands (like sets) we can donk (but not sure this one is strong enough to donk, I would prefer to have at least one overcard). I think I would check/fold the flop.

On the other hand, check/raising does look very strong multi-way so we might get enough folds from regs, but I think we would need a specific read on how CO reacts to check/raises (preferably multi-way), so I would stick to check/fold.

We do not represent anything... Sets will not xr.
Today I had a similar situation and villan xr me on the same flop. On showdon he showed AQo.

I am not sure what is raising ratio, its 2 bluffs 1 value on flop?

Yes, roughly it is 2:1.

spazz

Originally posted by Altairsky

I am not sure what is raising ratio, its 2 bluffs 1 value on flop?

Yes, roughly it is 2:1.

It is most definitely not that 3-ways.

If you insist on bluffing, you'd have a bunch of X:club:Y:club: to do it with on this board as well as 65s. Only on a super-dry board (e.g. K72 no 2-flush) can you think about bluffing with this hand provided you also check-raise sets and your opponents both know that.

And oh, forget all bullshit about you "having to defend" a certain percentage of your range. It is a small pot out of position against two opponents, and defending against exploitation is an extremely minor issue (because it is 3-ways against I suppose unnkowns). Also forget about tools like Equilab in spots like these. They aren't going to help you.

Do you make a difference between the draws you have in this board and the draws you have on KcTc9h for example.
When you xr on this dry board you will fold QQ-99, some low Kx and some of theweak FDs.

yes. Why is it bad for me to fold QQ-99, low Kx (not many of them imo will cbet, becuase they are good bluffcatchers and prefer small pot) and weak flushdrwas when I have weak hand like 9Ts? I mean I fold better hands. Why is it bad?

Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c

Do you make a difference between the draws you have in this board and the draws you have on KcTc9h for example.
When you xr on this dry board you will fold QQ-99, some low Kx and some of theweak FDs.

yes. Why is it bad for me to fold QQ-99, low Kx (not many of them imo will cbet, becuase they are good bluffcatchers and prefer small pot) and weak flushdrwas when I have weak hand like 9Ts? I mean I fold better hands. Why is it bad?

It is bad because you don't have the added equity of at least some sort of draw, and you risk very much overbluffing if you take random hands and make a stand. Doing it with dedicated hands automatically controls the rate at which you are doing it. Not having outs compared to having outs is a mathematically unavoidable loss in the long run. That said, if YOU feel that THIS TIME MY OPPONENTS WILL FOLD MUCH, then there is no reason not to bluff. But there is then also no point in posting the hands to the forum, because it is about your personal reads of the situation. No-one here is going to write "this is indeed a good spot to bluff" (compared to other spots).

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c

Do you make a difference between the draws you have in this board and the draws you have on KcTc9h for example.
When you xr on this dry board you will fold QQ-99, some low Kx and some of theweak FDs.

yes. Why is it bad for me to fold QQ-99, low Kx (not many of them imo will cbet, becuase they are good bluffcatchers and prefer small pot) and weak flushdrwas when I have weak hand like 9Ts? I mean I fold better hands. Why is it bad?

It is bad because you don't have the added equity of at least some sort of draw, and you risk very much overbluffing if you take random hands and make a stand. Doing it with dedicated hands automatically controls the rate at which you are doing it. Not having outs compared to having outs is a mathematically unavoidable loss in the long run. That said, if YOU feel that THIS TIME MY OPPONENTS WILL FOLD MUCH, then there is no reason not to bluff. But there is then also no point in posting the hands to the forum, because it is about your personal reads of the situation. No-one here is going to write "this is indeed a good spot to bluff" (compared to other spots).

I understand that doing with dedicated hands automacitally controls the rate. I was considering this hand as dedicated, because it has backdoor flushdraw equity. But I was not sure if it is good enough, so I posted

Fair enough. You have a BDSD as well. Heads up would be different. But I don't believe very much in the bluff to value ratio of 2:1 that self-proclaimed GTO gurus have advocated (called bluff-stacking). Three-ways is very different. How different? Don't know, but put it this way: I believe that if you don't bluff at all postflop 4-ways, then you'd play pretty close to some true GTO strategy. The conclusion (sadly without proof, but with good arguments i m o) is that you should bluff very little 3-ways. Therefore you don't need to bluff the long-shots. For instance, in this hand, the BDSD is of low quality. It needs to hit one of two cards (Q/J) on turn. A good BDSD can hit one of four cards. Admittedly, this is splitting hairs, but it is precisely what some GTO-oriented FL players are doing. In FL, this applies to calling just as much. There, it is very important not to fold prematurely. NL is quite different, many worry way to much about "defending their blinds" instead of improving postflop. I find that quite silly, especially if stacks happen to be deep. This does translate a bit to postflop. On the flop the pot is still small, so the worry about being blown off takes second seat.

Pre flop is ok.
I don't like the flop x/r.

Now you are trying to tell that you have 44 or 22 but good villains might not believe that.
If you had a set, donking would be better line than xr.

If you had a set, donking would be better line than xr.

why? they will not belive that I have set as many say and bluffcatch me a ton, plus pay off with FDs.

I also think pre-flop is ok. Multiway is even better because you have more implied odds.

On the flop I don't like to bluff here. Our hand doesn't have much chance to improve and we are mw. If you had a better draw, perhaps it would be ok to bluff sometimes.

Here, I would check/fold.

When you are multiway and have something it is better to lead. If you check there is a great risk that all check behind.
If this was heads up and you have a set I would agree more with a check raise.

Donking with set would be better in this situation just because we are multiway.
Check raising with set here is not bad but imo it is not optimal. Check raising as a bluff would be ok but your hand is so crap that it goes to fold category for me.

What is your reason to bluff here? You have very small chance to improve so you are hoping both of the villains will fold. In multiway pots villains tend to cbet more honestly and villain is not folding Kx or FD when you xr so often.