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98s

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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Did I overplay this hand a bit? =)

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $7.24 (72.4 bb)
Hero (BB): $10.38 (103.8 bb)
UTG: $17.28 (172.8 bb)
MP: $18.03 (180.3 bb)
CO: $13.10 (131 bb)
BTN: $6.22 (62.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8♣: 9♣:
UTG raises to $0.30, 4 folds, Hero raises to $1, UTG calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.05) Q♥: 2♣: T♠: (2 players)
Hero bets $0.80, UTG calls $0.80

Turn: ($3.65) 7♣: (2 players)
Hero bets $1.74, UTG calls $1.74

River: ($7.13) 2♠: (2 players)
Hero bets $4.53, UTG calls $4.53

Results:

Spoiler

$16.19 pot ($0.73 rake)
Final Board: Q♥: 2♣: T♠: 7♣: 2♠:
Hero showed 8♣: 9♣: and lost (-$8.07 net)
UTG showed K♦: Q♠: and won $15.46 ($7.39 net)

Imo standard 3bet vs UTG pre flop.
Flop cbet might be no good but I guess I rep a strong range and a big part of villains range is pocket pairs. I have a gutshot and backdoor draws.
OTT I improve to OESD+FD so I guess betting there is not bad, we have decent fold equity too.
OTR I have no showdown value and when villain didn't 4bet pre or raise on any street I think the best hand he has is AQ and even that should have hard time calling my riverbet.


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13 replies
plopfessional
Joined: 21.09.2016

I don't think 98s is a good hand to 3bet pre bb vs utg. It flops a lot of draws which are difficult to play well oop.
UTG should not 4bet a lot pre, because it was not a good spot for you to 3bet, so he should call with a lot of hands pre. In particular he has AQ, KQ, QJs, QQ, TT.
After your very small bet otf, villain has an easy call with All his sdv hands and his draws. I think this is a horrible bet. There is no better hand villain can fold and no worse he can call with. Since villain hits this board pretty good I think we should bet around 60-70% of the pot with fewer hands if we bet. Since this means you check more on this flop, check raising becomes a good option. 98s is an excellent hand to x/r this flop with. No showdown value and some equity that is reasonably disguised.
Now ott you choose a small bet size again. I think this is a better spot for a small betsize since the 7c is pretty brickish and does not change a lot (for most hands you and villain can have). However, your hand seems horrible for this bet. You have absolutely no sdv but a very good draw. If villain raises you allin, you might have to fold because you are to far behind vs KJs,QQ,TT (31.3% equity). Again, I think a good spot for a check with the intention of raising. C/C is fine as well of course.
As played otr, I would be pretty sure villain has some kind of AQ,KQ,JQs, maybe still QQ or TT, because he did not need to protect these hands as the board was not that drawy. He also has some draws like KJs maybe AK, AJs, because you gave him a good price. He might also have ATs,JTs,JJ. If he folds the tens and draws, it is a good bet. If he folds some of the more marginal draws ott your bet becomes worse. I like the bet but I think in general it is wiser to give up on the micros :) Who knows, he might put you on AK and hero you with 88.


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yeaxify
Joined: 29.12.2013

OTF you are bluffing into his range which connects well with the board. He might only fold some low PPs.
OTT what do you think his hand is after he called you OTF? OTT 7c is a bad barrel card imo, I dont see him fold anything he called you OTF with. OTR is even worse card to 3barrel.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Well at least you should give up on river. All hands that called you on turn will call again.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Well this hand is in my standard 3bet bluff range BBvsUTG. UTG should fold quite much vs 3bets and when I hit my hand is disguised. And really it is not that difficult to play postflop. If we don't hit we can give up and if we hit we can play according to odds.

KQ and QJ are definitely too weak for him to call pre flop so he shouldn't have those. He can have AQ, some KQs and some QQ but he could raise those OTF. I agree that flop bet wasn't the best option here.

Flop he can call with his pocket pairs and those AQ,KQ and maybe some AK too. Pockets he will fold vs turn barrel so there is at least some fold equity and our equity is decent too. So imo that was not a bad bet OTT. If we hit OTR we can just shove. I believe villain should flat pre flop with around 4% range, 88-AA, AKo,AKs,AQs, around that. Hands that will fold are at least 88,TT,JJ and maybe most of the AK since he has only a few outs with those. So he should fold actually quite big part of his flop calling range.

Why is river a bad card to barrel? We have no showdown value and only hand in his range that feels comfortable to call is QQ. Any KQ should fold and AQ should have really hard time calling since I have QQ+ in my range.


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Originally posted by la55i
Did I overplay this hand a bit? =)

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $7.24 (72.4 bb)
Hero (BB): $10.38 (103.8 bb)
UTG: $17.28 (172.8 bb)
MP: $18.03 (180.3 bb)
CO: $13.10 (131 bb)
BTN: $6.22 (62.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8♣: 9♣:
UTG raises to $0.30, 4 folds, Hero raises to $1, UTG calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.05) Q♥: 2♣: T♠: (2 players)
Hero bets $0.80, UTG calls $0.80

Turn: ($3.65) 7♣: (2 players)
Hero bets $1.74, UTG calls $1.74

River: ($7.13) 2♠: (2 players)
Hero bets $4.53, UTG calls $4.53

Results:

Spoiler

$16.19 pot ($0.73 rake)
Final Board: Q♥: 2♣: T♠: 7♣: 2♠:
Hero showed 8♣: 9♣: and lost (-$8.07 net)
UTG showed K♦: Q♠: and won $15.46 ($7.39 net)

Imo standard 3bet vs UTG pre flop.
Flop cbet might be no good but I guess I rep a strong range and a big part of villains range is pocket pairs. I have a gutshot and backdoor draws.
OTT I improve to OESD+FD so I guess betting there is not bad, we have decent fold equity too.
OTR I have no showdown value and when villain didn't 4bet pre or raise on any street I think the best hand he has is AQ and even that should have hard time calling my riverbet.

I would have played exactly the same as you until the river, I believe Nitrol is right and villain is calling the river bet.


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plopfessional
Joined: 21.09.2016

Pre: Why you shouldn't 3bet a lot in the BB.

  • You have to pay 2BB to play for 6.5BB (6.3BB with rake), thus you have a good price to call with many of your weaker hands. In order to protect them you also call a lot of stronger hands.
  • Villain opened UTG thus he already has a pretty narrow range.
  • You are OOP

Villain shouldn't 4bet a lot because your 3bet is to strong. However, he has position and needs to deny autoprofit for your 3bet so he needs to flat wide. Most people do not do this, but it is a good spot to flat KK. The flop range I would expect for villain is almost all suited broadways, most pocket pairs he opens from UTG, AK, AQ, KQ, suited connectors.
Unless Villain open 10-12% UTG he cannot only call 4% vs your 3bet. He should open 16-18% UTG. He also has no initiative, so he will probably overfold A high flops. Thus I assume he needs to call ~50% of his opening range.

River:
A Competent villain, should rarely fold TP here. I don't think he should be happy or comfortable calling you down, but he has to defend vs your bets with enough hands. AQ and KQ without a club are most likely the best calldowns (unblock your flushdraws, block your AQ,AA,KK,QQ).


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Why I should 3bet this hand
I should have at least some kind of bluff 3bet range even from this position vs UTG.
Simply 3bet bluffing UTG with merged range is not good, too much domination issues so suited connectors are a lot better as bluffs.

Villain should definitely 4bet KK+ and maybe AQo or something as a bluff. If villain flats all suited broadways like QJs it is way too wide. He would basically end up flatting 100% of his opening range.


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plopfessional
Joined: 21.09.2016

Certainly, it is not the end of the world if you use 89s as 3bet bluff. It is a fine hand to use and I agree you should have 3bet bluffs. I just think Axs is better, because you block villains calling range way more. 89s just plays so much better if you are deeper.
Villain should fold a lot of Ax hands. Depending on his range A2s-A9s,ATo,AJo. Also KJo and if he has them QJo and K9s-J9s. My point is he has to call with a lot of hands because he needs to defend properly (no one can help him anymore since you are last to act). If he 4bets to much his calling range is to weak and he can't defend vs tripple barrels anymore.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Calling and playing this hand OOp is hard without initiative. Most of the time if you hit a flush or a straight, it will be too obvious and you have to donk, to extract value. This way you may not get a lot of calls.
I think this hand is ok for a bluff 3b preflop.


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VaskataBuci
Joined: 08.08.2011

Depends what other hands hero 3bets preflop but looks like easy push on the river. Preflop 3bet with this hand is good.


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

One technical Point: "Defending your blind" against UTG is very different from doing it versus the button. You aren't really "defending your blind", you are simply bluffing. This is fine, but the range to do it with need not be big.

Domination is a huge issue here. Hand such as 7♠:6♠:, 6♦:5♦:, and even 5♥:4♥: are far superior 9♣:8♣: versus the range of UTG. This hand illustrates the phenomenon. Hitting the bottom end of a gutshot with 9♣:8♣: versus an UTG range is mixed news. Chances are he has at least a superior gutshot. This is much less likely to happen with 6♦:5♦:.

As played, I don't like the third barrel, and the first two are too small. Flop bets should generally be larger than the turn bet - except when the turn brings in many extra draws (like here). You don't represent a made hand with these bets.

Edit: Maybe AI on the turn is an alternative.


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Mozzek
Joined: 16.07.2016

I would be very careful what to 3 bet UTG with. I´d just call PF. Flop c bet seems too small to me. I would give up OTR.


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Mandator
Joined: 02.02.2008

I would have played exactly as you until the turn. OTR I just give up because there's no hand that can call 2 streets and fold a third one in that spot


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