3way 3b pot 2nd pair delay cbet?

Hmmm, any specific reason why to 3 bet this hand preflop? If not I would fold this one. As played I would cbet OTT. Maybe OTF, but I´m not sure there, probably we would have to bet OTT as well.

I think you could either cbet the flop or just give up immediately when they call pre. By cbetting flop you will fold out some broadways but not that you are multiway I'm not sure you have enough fold equity, they can have pocket pairs too which won't fold. Using a delayed cbet OTT when more draws open is kinda meh, those pocket pairs and now some draws will call so basically you should bet both turn and river to make them fold and they still might not fold because not cbetting OTF makes it look more bluffy.

3bet PF is standard imo with table 3ppl.
I would cbet that flop for value (from FD,straigth and PP and overcards that would not let go), because villains miss that flop most of the time but have a lot of draw.
them my line would had been b/f
Then depending on villains either b/f or x/f (from turn after your bet flop I don't see a worst hand betting on that 3); OTR : x/f.

As played I think you can b/f turn and x/f or x/c minbet river (if no draw hit).

I don't really understand la55i reasonning here :

Using a delayed cbet OTT when more draws open is kinda meh, those pocket pairs and now some draws will call so basically you should bet both turn and river to make them fold and they still might not fold because not cbetting OTF makes it look more bluffy.

Actually the fact that FD and PP will call make cbet worth it, in that case you cbet for value not to make them fold. facing a raise you're probably already beat though. However there're not that much combos since you block 8 (assuming JJ+ would had 4bet preflop).

Cmon we are in 3bet pot multiway with midpair.
We can stab this once OTF and then give up. You valuebet when you are most likely ahead. In this hand we could be very much dead already on the flop.

We could discuss the probability of behind ahead or not. What seems strange to me is that in your reflexion it's a problem that PP or FD doesn t give up ? that's the essence of valuebetting to me, at the time their hand are worst and they call.
So if you assume a PP or a FD in villain hand would call you, you are valuebetting against these hands. And depending action when draw hit you can give up.

Now I can understand if you believe PP or FD is really unelikely in villain hand you can just give up.

IMO in that situation only A9s/99 and maybe some combo of 89s left are ahead of our hands here (because PF after the call of BB JJ+ would had 4bet). So a delay cbet turn is fine.

There are also better pocket pairs and other made pairs that beat us (like A8 and any 9x). If I cbet the flop it is of course nice to get value from draws and weaker pockets (although weaker pockets should not call flop) but my main goal would be to rep a strong hand and make some broadway combos fold.

As I said in my first post, we could just give up with our bluff. We have a bluff hand that hit a mid pair but we are in a 3bet pot with 2 villains. If we are ahead OTF, almost half of the deck is bad for us. That is why I prefer giving up, but "one and done" might be decent option too. If we decide to start betting OTT, which I don't like that much, we have to barrel like hell to make some 9x or TT fold and still villain has hands in his range that will call.

I think what caused our misunderstanding is this:
You thought that they have some weaker hands and draws that will call -> value bet
I thought that we might very well be behind already and if we are ahead we will still lose the hand by the river quite often -> not much value there

@piR

If you are up against even remotely not-brain-dead opponents, then the idea about extracting value OOP with weak hands is rather remote (ridiculous to be honest) to me. You'd need some luck even to extract value with an overpair here. If they meekly call with draws, then you still have big problems taking down the pot. You cannot check-call. You cannot bet. You simply hope they call with worse hands and let you walk away with big pots with second pair, weak kicker.

In position, it is an entirely different matter. Now you can make money with the worst hand if so happens. You can also make money with a weak best hand. This is because you, not they, decide whether it goes check-check-check on river. They are the ones in position this time.

totally agree with @piR

Hmmm, any specific reason why to 3 bet this hand preflop?

suited, has K blocker, stealer is potentially a reg who can fold.

Using a delayed cbet OTT when more draws open is kinda meh, those pocket pairs and now some draws will call so basically you should bet both turn and river to make them fold and they still might not fold because not cbetting OTF makes it look more bluffy.

I am not trying to make better PPs fold. I try to make overcards fold if I bet. Maybe even draws can fold, because we do not give direct odds, plus board is paired, which means they can have reverse implied odds.

Btw also - storng hands could have bet flop. So I think their ranges are weaker than on flop because they did not bet. THey are less likely having diamond draw.

And of flop I really did not like to bet cause I thouht their ranges now crush me.

We could discuss the probability of behind ahead or not. What seems strange to me is that in your reflexion it's a problem that PP or FD doesn t give up ? that's the essence of valuebetting to me, at the time their hand are worst and they call.

we are betting vs whole range. The fact that weaker hands might call does not mean its profit if more often we are called by stronger ones and if we do not have enough fold equity.

yeah in the end we kind of agree la55i > my point was only that if lower PP and draws can call then cbet could be for value. Now is it a good spot to value or not ? that's another discussion (which from what I understand in your opinion is no).

IMO as I said I don t believe there that much better pocket pair in villain range in this spot. So it left A9, 89s, 99, TT I do believe we are in value turn against all the rest of their range and we can make fold broadway. so my line as played PF and OTF would be b/f turn and x/c OTR small bet.

@YohanN7 agree with you OOP hard to extract value but we're turn already so unless they shove river we can find a call OTR.

However when we check that turn we give up the hand. I don't like x/c this turn.

Then we all agree about qualitative advantages and disadvantages of various plays. Cool:f_cool: Admittedly, checking turn is giving up. I am a born quitter, so I give up:D