AJs vs limp call + raise all in flop

wouldn't call it. Can easily be holding either a flush or straight draw, even both considering that he just limped. He may already have it and you just got the top pair. Fold.

This looks like a 6 man SNG based on the stack sizes, but I wouldn’t gamble with top pair decent kicker when we have a decent edge on the table and we are 2nd in chips as well. We don’t need to gamble yet I think against a passive villain like him.

Cheers,
SDK1987

It's early stage and i personally wouldnt call on his Flop shove with 40bb on early stages with just TPDK, probably not even TPTK.
If this is 9-man SNG and you're on the Bubble , you're way better folding the flop since stacks are somewhat equal and this call-and-lose will greatly damage your $EV in ICM terms. You need more history about his shove-on-the-flop and what that means.

Wow, a lot of nits itt.

we need 37,8% here for a cEV call. [off course we can add some ICM tax %, but for starters this is fine].
Villain is a fun player. Though a small sample, he is calling way way too wide and therfore is probably unaware of stacksizes, ranges and so on. So if we give villain Ax, 22, 44, and a lot of draws.. (which i don't think is unreasonable). I'm calling this very happily and improve my chances of powning the table (future EV).

I wouldn´t call as well unless I had strong reads on Villain and knew he does such moves with bottom or middle pair or something like 99, TT, 88, 77 here (which means: huge :f_ugly:). And even if he´s a also those can hold strong hands now and then. And we are near bubble so don´t forget about the bubble factor/risk premium. We actually need more equity than those 37,5%.

Originally posted by Primrose6789
I wouldn´t call as well unless I had strong reads on Villain and knew he does such moves with bottom or middle pair or something like 99, TT, 88, 77 here (which means: huge :f_ugly:). And even if he´s a also those can hold strong hands now and then. And we are near bubble so don´t forget about the bubble factor/risk premium. We actually need more equity than those 37,5%.

Totally right about the ICM tax, but I stated that myself also. So still amazed...
What limp-call range do you guys (girl sorry Prim) give villain here then?

Even if we give villain a range of only {AA,44,22, A8o+, A6s+}, which isn't all that strange imo and still contains AK which isn't that likely imo we still have 46,4% against that specific range.

There's a good discussion in Phil Shaw's book for ICM play between equal-stacked players on the Bubble.
The conclusion is: you need a massive equity (on the likes of 65+% preflop) to play for all your chips when the stacks are equal; i imaging it's not changing too much post-flop, assuming we're on Bubble; if not, it's lower but not that much.
What possible range you can give to a loose-passive guy, shoving his 30bbish on the flop? who knows, probably not even himself knows why he shoves.
Why do you want to call and share your equity to everyone else. Fold.

Originally posted by vlzvl
There's a good discussion in Phil Shaw's book for ICM play between equal-stacked players on the Bubble.
The conclusion is: you need a massive equity (on the likes of 65+% preflop) to play for all your chips when the stacks are equal; i imaging it's not changing too much post-flop, assuming we're on Bubble; if not, it's lower but not that much.
What possible range you can give to a loose-passive guy, shoving his 30bbish on the flop? who knows, probably not even himself knows why he shoves.
Why do you want to call and share your equity to everyone else. Fold.

So what I'm basically reading is:
- You've read a book and assume situations rule alike?
- You can't figure out a range, but still "think" you are splattering equity to everyone else?

No offense, but this doesn't help us out. And I think you are looking at this way too easy without a proper proof or calculations.

So basically two questions for you:
1) how much equity do we need here?
2) how much equity do you think we have against the range of villain?

if 1>2, then fold.
if 2>1, then call.

Right?

i'm not offended at all, in fact i will try to answer the questions by ICM calculations.
I'm gonna use a $1 9-man tournament with $0.85 going to prizepool as i dont know the OP's tournament.
If this is 6-max or anything else, you can stop reading now.

So, if the tournament is $1 and the 0.85$ goes to prizepool, the prizepool is = 7.65$

There are 3 equities (in real money), calculated by assuming the above tournament type:
equity if we fold = 2$
equity if we call and lose = 0.97$
equity if we call and win = 2.89$

Assuming he has a range of AA,44,22, A8o+, A6s+, then we have an equity of 46.33%

Then our calling equity is:

equity calling = ((equity / 100) * (equity if we call and win / prizepool)) + 
                 (((100 - equity) / 100) * (equity if we call and lose / prizepool))

(Some good references about the above are here and here)

So,
equity calling = 0.243
equity folding = 2$ / prizepool = 2$ / 7.65 = 0.261
EV diff = -0.018

So calling with 46.33%, our calling equity is $EV- and at best about break even.
About what range i give to this villain, i'm giving him AA,44,22,A8s+,KTs+,ATo+ which gives us about 45% equity as i can't expect a sane player to shove with A6o with 30bb; that needs some history and if i need history first, i fold here.
Certainly, this player does this with A rags but that's a small part of his range so i upped his Axo+.
I hope that clears things out. Cheers

Sorry I have not stated this before, I really should have. It's a 6max turbo tournament. I'm really enjoying reading all the different opinions on this hand, although it's such a simple situation I think it had indeed many valid points of view about it that we can go through and that's why I posted it...!

Originally posted by SDK1987
This looks like a 6 man SNG based on the stack sizes, ...

Originally posted by vlzvl
If this is 6-max or anything else, you can stop reading now.

Edit: and,... thanx for the effort so far. Lets try if we can make it for 6max as well.

Based on 6max, with 65/35 pay outs.

Chipstacks if fold and %equity:
2059 btn 23,49% (hero)
3629 sb 36,38%
2367 bb 26,48%
1141 utg 13,65%

Chipstacks if call and win and %equity:
4236 btn 44,07% (hero)
3629 sb 40,76%
1141 bb 15,17%

46,33% of the times we gain 20,58% equity (+9,53)

Chipstacks if call and lose and $equity:
736 btn 9,49% (hero)
3629 sb 38,48%
3488 bb 37,57%
1141 utg 14,46%

53,67% of the times we lose 14% equity (-7,51)

So equity wise the call has a positive outcome. Would love to see what it does compared to $EV.

I tested this on 6-max payout structure as well:

equity if we fold (1.23$)
equity if we call and lose (0.50$)
equity if we call and win (2.30$)

using the 46.33% (or 45%) hand range, it gives roughly:

folding equity (23.5%)
calling equity (25.5%)
EV diff (2.0%)

So it's $EV+ to call here and the trick is that we're not on the Bubble yet.
Playing on the Bubble, it gives the following:

calling equity (37.4%)
folding equity (37.0%)
EV diff (0.5%)

I think this 65-35% payout structure is more forgiving that 9-man 50,30,20% one.
An equity of about 40% is the break-even point when you're one position before the Bubble (4-man), where on 9-man much more equity is required.