[Closed] Hands from 50k grindroll on Party

hand 1: eeeasy call after his raise, great odds to call with JJ there.

hand 2: I don't like the fold with that short stack, with M <2 JJ is the nuts.

hand 3: easy push with your a bit over 1 bb stack , I don't know how you got that short but I hope you didn't got blinded out to that stack.

There was a lot of things to consider. But with stack I had it was not realistic compete for the first places.

There were players that were shorter than me and playing marginal situation would cost me quite a lot of money and they were shooting prety marginal hands...

ad hand 2) - at that time it looked that wining the hand would grant me $750 (but not more) and loosing it I would gave me $500. I thought about this move for really a long time...

I would get $750 for sure also by folding that hand - for me it was +$EV decision to fold it. And wanted to maximize my win... and calling at that point would not do that...

I saw player that got busted on $500 with middle size stack that would gave him top 10, maybe top 5 - just by folding. He called KK against Ax and lost it to a much bigger stack. He costed him self a lot of money by that play.

Again to hand 3), before reaching the final table I did not have any hand I would like to play and there were players that would be out before me... other players were just impatient and busted them selves with marginal hands...

After doubling up with this hand 4 other players busted out them selves out of the tournament... just by not playing I manage to outlast them. KTs on blind was then easy call... and I was out against KQ.

TTT

Hi TTT.

Maybe you could put the payout structure and stuff, however in theory MTT is just play to get first place not fold into the next payout.

I saw player that got busted on $500 with middle size stack that would gave him top 10, maybe top 5 - just by folding. He called KK against Ax and lost it to a much bigger stack. He costed him self a lot of money by that play.

all in preflop? then he made the right play, folding there would be horrible IMO. great chance to double up and go for the final table.

Congrats on your cash

Sklansky: Tournament Poker for Advanced Players, Expanded Edition, The last Table section, Page 90

There is one major expecption. It occurs when you are playing no-limit, and you are facing a stack that can bust you. Here should probably not risk all your chips as a slight favorite since a loss would bring you instantly down to ninth place (worst paid place in general - comment). This would be especially true if doubling your chips would still not make you one of the leaders.

Calling KK in to a two times larger stack with A high hand was 70:30 situation and he was risiking moving up 1 place (could make difference between $3k to $3.5k) or loosing all his chips and get $500.

EV = 0.7*$500 + 0.3 *(-$2500) = -$400

If you are in next to last place, but still quite short, you should tend to go out of your way to avoid going broke before the shorter stack does

Calling JJ to one or two overcards is quite same to previous situation, but the difference in payout may not be so significant, but still -EV. Easy all-in if I was still first to act.

In general you during tournament you are trying to do decisions that will maximaze your expected value. This will be most of the time very close to the strategy when you are trying to win the tournament.

When I get to money I did not play for win, I played to outlast as many opponents as possible and I was avoiding close gambles because they were -EV for me. I do not want glory of tourney winner. I came for money.

Regards

TTT

Originally posted by alejandrosh
hand 1: eeeasy call after his raise, great odds to call with JJ there.

hand 2: I don't like the fold with that short stack, with M <2 JJ is the nuts.

hand 3: easy push with your a bit over 1 bb stack , I don't know how you got that short but I hope you didn't got blinded out to that stack.

+1

first hands Js is a trouble hand , you think you have to play it & raise 2.5BB is better as easier to get away from but here have to call

hand two is such a good spot to double up from & hope he has not got over pair

You cannot call this hand... look at the table, there are 3 stacks that are mostlikely out before I am.

JJ vs UTG? AK, AQ, TT+ what else is in his range on this position? Maybe looser, but cannot call it. You are costing yourself to much by calling here...

Pushing first all-in is different story - you have big fold equity... a lot of chips come just from blind folding or from loose call on BB who things that you are stealing.

TTT

Hi.

Originally posted by TTT241
Calling KK in to a two times larger stack with A high hand was 70:30 situation and he was risiking moving up 1 place (could make difference between $3k to $3.5k) or loosing all his chips and get $500.

EV = 0.7*$500 + 0.3 *(-$2500) = -$400

Can you play a bit with this http://www.jamorfold.com/icm.html , Because I find it very hard to believe that folding kings preflop in a MTT ITM is a +ev play. really.

Situation: 20 players left, stack 28k, KK playing 70:30 situation, relative stack value $2900

Before calling king

Call & lost - $500

Call & win - $4560

Call & win

fold = $2900
call = 0.3*500 + 0.7 * 4560 = $3342

Diff +$400 or +15%

Let assume, that you are calling shorstack, that might take you 1/2 of your chips, than
fold = $2900
call = 0.3*1736 + 0.7*3617 = $3052

It is still slightly better than folding, but see that difference, evan after lost, you still have $1700 and you are not done.

This is very close decision... and I would look for better +EV, this is very close...

TTT

you need to think playing MTT as a long term thing , like the bottom line at end of year & how much profit you make

where I finish in any of the 1000 MTT each year is not a issue & worrying about busting out will affect your bottom line

folding Ks in satelite / DON sng is fine but never in a MTT

Sure, but you need to decide if you are going to take

decision with overall EV = +$150 with probability of 60% for success
or decision with overall EV = +$130 with probability of 85% for success...

It is easy decision in cash games where you can rebuy and continue easily on... all advantedges have to be used to edge...

In tournament there is a rule - you're out, you're done... that is why you do not want to gamble for all your chips... you loose, you're done...

If you are going to take every +EV in tournament, you will be out sooner than you would like to. You need to choose carefully what are you going to play...

TTT

Originally posted by TTT241

In tournament there is a rule - you're out, you're done... that is why you do not want to gamble for all your chips... you loose, you're done...

the players that do this make such a big mistake , I play about 1000 MTT a year and its the ones where I am chipped up on the final table is where I make money

the money in a MTT is mostly in the top 3 places & every game that is where you should aim & where you bust out dont matter

learn to play the final table & it will become the easiest part of it & knowing you are good enough to win it will help you & getting to the final table chipped up is the hard part & tournament survival dont matter & should never affect your actions

+$EV call with kings means you win money, if you don't take it you are losing expected money and in the long run losing money.

btw, couldn't agree more with curnow

Assume following situation:

Prob 0,9 0,8 0,7 0,6
Win 130 150 180 250
Lost 70 50 30 0
EV 124 130 135 150

You need to take 10 decisions which has probabilities of 0.9 to 0.6 with win and loss ratio in percents (you gain to 130% or loss to 70% ...)

You have 1000 starting chips that you cannot rebuy and you need to take it 10 times... which option will you choose?

50 independent runs, 1 average for each situation

Which will be most profitable?

Prob 0,9 0,8 0.7 0.6
Win 8426 15111 12437 0

It is not the one with overall best EV... it is balance between risk and reward ratio... simple, if you are gamble in close decisions (even with best EV), you cannot survive...

TTT

you are missing the point , playing MTT can be so profitable because players like you value tournament life so much & lots of them are just happy to make the money

this makes the bubble so valueable in MTT with players playing scared money in which worrying about your tournament life is & it dont matter when there is another one starting in few mins , if you bubble you bubble and it dont matter at end of year when you look at that bottom line and its those top 3 place making the differance

what makes these marginal calls worth it is giving you the chance to make the top three places but you need to watch the table so much more in MTT compared to cash games as your pokertracker means dick all in MTT & working out who is weak & the ranges & trends the players make will help you in the only goals that matters making the big money on the final tables

hand 1:

easy easy call.
you raised it up to 4800 and the guy pushing all in has 7600
so the pot is 2900(ante + blinds) + 4800 (too big a raise, 4000 would do it) + 7600 = 15300 and you have to call 1800 so you are getting better then 8:1....

even against SUITED ACES this would be a monster easy call.

hand 2:

your M is down to 2,x
against every raise, from every position this hand is an all in against a single player.
even a raise from UTG doesnt have to mean he has QQ+
true the money you will earn by folding the jacks might be thrilling, but if you want to win this tourney and go for the big money, you have to go all in here.

JJ is a good hand, your M is down to 2,x so JJ becaomes the nuts in my view against ONE opponent.

hand 3:

easy push.
you have 1 BB left (dont know how you can get so short stacked!!!!)
ANY two cards would be good enough for first in all in.
ANY TWO.
JT is a monster here.

Originally posted by TTT241

In tournament there is a rule - you're out, you're done... that is why you do not want to gamble for all your chips... you loose, you're done...

yes thats true
but that doesnt matter that much
if you really want to make big money you have to be willing to die.
thats the truth.
if you fold JJ in a M=2,x situation against a single opponent you are far to scared.
i mean if you want to win the big money you HAVE to dubble up one twice or three times here.
and here you have JJ against AQ+, TT+ you have 46%
with all the dead money in the pot you have the odds for calling.
PLUS your stack is soo damn low that you HAVE to gamble for all your ships, AND go for the first 3 places , or you can fold yourself up a level.

mtt is not about folding yourself up one or two stages, but to find the right spots to play agressive and gamble a bit for the first 3 places.

true you MIGHT lose here in 60% of the time but the other 40% you will be in good position to win it ALL !!!