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Check for value?

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Mompacha
Joined: 18.08.2017

Hi guys i bring you this two hands that i have doubts in, tell me what you think.

First hand:

-Flop: i think it's fine just call here
-Turn: i'm gonna keep calling here with my double pair and FD
-River: ?? I think i have to check here because my hand have some showdown value and i don't think there is a worst hand to call my bet

partypoker - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 103.4 BB
CO: 100 BB
Hero (BTN): 128.3 BB
SB: 387.3 BB
BB: 115.3 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♣ Q♠

fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, SB raises to 10.5 BB, fold, Hero calls 8 BB

Flop: (22 BB, 2 players) Q♣ J♥ 5♣
SB bets 10.5 BB, Hero calls 10.5 BB

Turn: (43 BB, 2 players) A♣
SB bets 20.5 BB, Hero calls 20.5 BB

River: (84 BB, 2 players) 9♠

SB checks, Hero ??

Second hand:

partypoker - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 100.5 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 58.5 BB
Hero (MP): 101.7 BB
CO: 295.9 BB
BTN: 114.7 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A♥ A♠

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to 9 BB, Hero calls 6 BB

Flop: (18.5 BB, 2 players) K♥ 4♦ 5♦
BB bets 13 BB, Hero calls 13 BB

Turn: (44.5 BB, 2 players) 5♥
BB bets 19 BB, Hero ??

¿What would you do in here and why?

Spoiler

Hero raises to 45 BB, BB raises to 78 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 33 BB

River: (200.5 BB, 2 players) J♥

Hero shows A♥ A♠ (Two Pair, Aces and Fives)
(Pre 87%, Flop 82%, Turn 95%)
BB shows K♠ Q♣ (Two Pair, Kings and Fives)
(Pre 13%, Flop 18%, Turn 5%)
Hero wins 190.5 BB

¿Why i play this way?
-Flop: Have no sense to raise, just call.
-Turn: Here i have the necessity to raise due to all the draws. The way i see, if i raise x2.5 on this particular turn 5, looks like i'm making a weak bluff (like an aggro fish would do). After this absurd movement, the reg realize that it is a bluff (i haven't value raises here, just draws with low equity and AA, wich i probably 4B pre), so i think he is going to stack off with any FD y SD, KT+ y TT+ (depends on the player) i think.
Also my sizing could make him think that he could call to try to hit his draws.

¿What do you think?

Regards, Mompacha. :f_drink::f_drink:


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12 replies
la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

First hand I would fold preflop.
OTF raising might be an option too. As played calling the turn and checking behind the river seems fine.

Second hand is definitely a 4bet pre.
As played flop seems ok.
I would not raise OTT. You have strong hands, you have good bluffs. Just call with this hand and let him barrel. By raising you will isolate yourself against a stronger range.
I believe that play will be losing on the long run.


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Dadramel
Joined: 10.08.2014

1# f pre


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Moderator
SDK1987
Joined: 12.11.2008

First, I have removed your other hand that was posted in your native language.
I would 4bet AA as well for value and as played I would call the turn to keep his range wide and her-evaluate the river. If you want to raise the turn I would shove.

Cheers,
SDK1987


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Mompacha
Joined: 18.08.2017
Spoiler

Originally posted by la55i
First hand I would fold preflop.
OTF raising might be an option too. As played calling the turn and checking behind the river seems fine.

Second hand is definitely a 4bet pre.
As played flop seems ok.
I would not raise OTT. You have strong hands, you have good bluffs. Just call with this hand and let him barrel. By raising you will isolate yourself against a stronger range.
I believe that play will be losing on the long run.

Spoiler

Originally posted by Dadramel
1# f pre

Guys, do you never call a 3B in BTN against SB? If the answer is due to the stats, those are wrong, i have like just 60 hands of this guy, and don't remember the 3B stat. (I don't know why the stats are wrong in the replayer, i'm gonna remove them).

Spoiler

Originally posted by SDK1987
First, I have removed your other hand that was posted in your native language.
I would 4bet AA as well for value and as played I would call the turn to keep his range wide and her-evaluate the river. If you want to raise the turn I would shove.

Cheers,
SDK1987

I don't understand why you said that i always have to 4B AA here, i mean, i have the best hand and position against the rival. He is going to call a 4B/shove with QQ+, AKs right? That is like a 4% of his entire range. But he will lead the action a lot on almost all possible boards. I knew that he was an agro rival. :roto2:

One thing is sure and none of you like the raise OTT haha, it just looked too risky to me in the moment, so i decided to prove doing that. But if you say that the best movement would have been to just call, i going to do it next time. _drink:

Thanks a lot for the replies guys, really appreciate it.

Regards, Mompacha.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Guys, do you never call a 3B in BTN against SB?

Not with QJo. That is a fold in my and many others ranges. I think the hand is bad for a call. Especially against 4.2x 3bet.
I might call if I had some reads.
Didn't base this decision in stats, didn't actually even look at villains stats. It is just a standard fold for me.

About that AA, I would almost always 4bet. If you have some good reads maybe slowplaying it might be ok but in general this is always a 4bet.


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Mompacha
Joined: 18.08.2017

Originally posted by la55i

Guys, do you never call a 3B in BTN against SB?

Not with QJo. That is a fold in my and many others ranges. I think the hand is bad for a call. Especially against 4.2x 3bet.
I might call if I had some reads.
Didn't base this decision in stats, didn't actually even look at villains stats. It is just a standard fold for me.

About that AA, I would almost always 4bet. If you have some good reads maybe slowplaying it might be ok but in general this is always a 4bet.

Got it! I'll add this to my range too, thanks for answer @la55i!


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zednik44
Joined: 17.08.2017

question on this: should the 4bet pre in this situation be a 4bet shove, or just a regular 4 bet (i.e. 3x or so?)


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Originally posted by zednik44
question on this: should the 4bet pre in this situation be a 4bet shove, or just a regular 4 bet (i.e. 3x or so?)

Would you 4bet shove as a bluff?


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Mompacha
Joined: 18.08.2017

Originally posted by zednik44
question on this: should the 4bet pre in this situation be a 4bet shove, or just a regular 4 bet (i.e. 3x or so?)

As La55i said, i never 4bet shove as a bluff, normally the size is x2 - x2.5 (depends on each player). Imo x3 is just too big, you are not gonna see a good reg 4betting as big, only against a fish or against a low FoldTo4B and some reads i think.

I personally 5Bet shove as a bluff against a really big 4B%, you compare this % and the range it represents and determine if you have equity enought to make this move or not.

Anyways, i'm not a role model haha, better you take the coach/moderators advice. :f_p:


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KatalonacX
Joined: 22.11.2013

First hand is fold preflop, OTF best move is raise, and stack off imo. OTT call is fine, OTR is bet 1/3-1/2pot to charge AK.


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KatalonacX
Joined: 22.11.2013

Second hand is 4-bet always (on micros bluff 3-bet are rare from blinds), if viliain have AK his chance to hit somethin on flop is poor.


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Mompacha
Joined: 18.08.2017

Haha why you supposed the villain allways have AK? I think in the blinds the ranges are huge. And all the regs 3bet bluff in these positions. Furthermore, i have an enormous steal% from CO+, so a 3bet with 98o is an EV+ movement against me.

Anyways, in the first hand, raise OTF could be the best option. I recieve a lot of different points of view so i don't really know haha.

Regards KatalonacX _drink:


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