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I would again just bet for value

Trapping has more merit here though, as you're not very vulnerable, it's HU and villain could be stabby. Problem is that he must have something, most likely Kxxx or smaller hearts and is quite likely to take free cards, if not overly aggressive.

And otr it's whatever. He should be able to valuebet more than FHs but sizing is bit polarizing almost pot.

Would be nice to have some reads, but I dont think going either way can be really bad. I personally would fold against unknown this sizing and collect more info, even if straight is strong hand here and he looks bit bluffy.

I would call the river. If he has a boat he would bet smaller. And if he has a flush, why would he pot it there? Once hero checks river he probably thinks that hero doesn't have full houses often in the range.

Why wouldn't villain bet big with FH?

Villain cant have very many FHs though, so should consider can many players really bomb with BD flushes here. Many might checkback Kx though thinking thats enough when hero checks twice, so what is his bluffing range?

He can pot the river with boat. But then again he might not. We have no info on the villain, so we don't know if he is a good reg that bets big because his range is really polarized or is he more of a recreational who would bet smaller with boats to get calls and pots his bluffs to max FE.

His bluffing range is missed hearts and weak Kxxx hands.

On the other hand, when hero checks turn and river (especially against unknown), how often hero has a boat? Against villain's range hero is pretty much at the top of his range, and if hero folds this (with passive line) then does hero have here a calling range at all?

Originally posted by Kyyberi

On the other hand, when hero checks turn and river (especially against unknown), how often hero has a boat? Against villain's range hero is pretty much at the top of his range, and if hero folds this (with passive line) then does hero have here a calling range at all?

This, imho.

Depends does hero valuebet spades otr. And do you expect villain to turn his Kxxx into bluff, which imo is quite unnecessary when hero plays so passive his hand.

Even better bluffcatchers would be hands with blockers to FHs and flush, not hearts. But I dont think calling or folding is bad either way.

But if hero vbet spades otr then isn't this by definition the best hand we can have when we check? Or I'm not understanding s/th? Btw, I wouldn't expect villain to turn K into a bluff

Yes, IF hero valuebets flushes+. I would check some (+ maybe trap some better hands if checked turn with them) .

If you think he doesnt bluff Kx his bluffing range is quite narrow leaving mainly lower hearts, unless he floats cbets really wide for stabbing such spots with random hands. There isnt reasonable missed straightdraws (maybe 53), backdoor FD got there.

If villain bets, he should have a nutflush+ or a bluff. Against that range straight is as good as any flush. So hero is here at the top of his range unless he checks river with nutflush+.

If hero folds here close to 100% of his range, it’s highly exploitable strategy as villain has Kxxx and missed flush draws in his range that can bluff the river.

Folding this straight doesnt mean folding 100% of your range, you're exaggerating. Now hero has the worst straight possible with blockers to hearts and straightdraws, none to FHs or spades. If you fold the worst combo from your range it doesnt mean you're gonna fold 100%.

But surely we will get to the river with a ton of worse hands than this. Let's say we have Q♣:Q♦:J♣:9♠: It's a hand we could well 3b HU. We cbet the flop and get called. By the turn we hate our hand and intend to give up. The river makes life even worse for our hand, so our intention is to x/f. X/f'ing QQ on this runnout vs this action is crystal clear. There are very many hands that can take this exact same line pre and post and have no intention of ever bluffcatching.

So, I think our hand does really qualify as one of the best hands we can show up with in the normal course of events.

I don't think fact that we have non-nut str8 is that important, b/c villain is not betting better str8s. If we did have the nut str8 that's one of the other hands we'd often be barreling the turn with. I'm not saying we should always make this bluffcatch. If we know villain under bluffs then ofc we should fold. But I do think x/f this hand on the river would be suboptimal from gto pov, given unknown villain and how hand was played.

Having 2nd nut straight doesnt matter, but it means villain is more unlikely to have busted straightdraw as we hold some blockers, some draws got there (he didnt bet so he cant have them) and some low cards made FH.

I dont get what you mean with that QQ hand? It loses even to Kx which you thought wont bluff here anyway. Surely you can have tons of missed rundowns that you can bet one and done way and just fold now?

What Im saying is that his bluffing range shouldnt be that wide because it's hard for him to have nothing, much that you beat has shdv and will be checkbackibg and not that much missed draws. He's not giving himself a good price to bluff or you to bluffcatch either.

Most likely it's a gto call and I probably would've called too, Ive just tried to make a counter-argument why folding cant be so so bad either

Hmmm, I think we probably misunderstand each other now.

You said: "If you fold the worst combo from your range it doesn't mean you're gonna fold 100%."

Agreed, totally. We're saying the opposite: 'if you fold the best combo in your range, then you will be folding 100%'

Here, we're nowhere near the bottom/worst combo of our range. The QQ hand was an example of a hand we could take this line with and which still beats bluffs (assuming he doesn't vbet Kx) but which we would never really consider calling with. So, question is, whether we can get to the river taking this line with any hands better than the one we actually have. If we can't, then we're at the top of our range - which is the gto point we are making.

I think it's true that we could get to the river with some weak backdoor flushes which we use for bluffcatchers - but I think vs villain's vbetting range for potsize, a flush is as good as a str8.

Couple questions:

1) Is this an automatic 3bet hu 100bbs? Would this be a 3b 6max vs bu? What about vs sb?

2) Seems most people are fine checking this turn. How wide are we expecting villain to float here if we think we desperately need protection on the turn against our bet-check-line? We block so many of the reasonable floats with our aces that almost all the really loose calls with the gutterballs are out of villain's range and the ones that still are in there (with the A:s) probably won't bet.

Lastly, I think I fold river without reads.

2) I think the discussion has been mostly about river play. I think only I did comment about turn, and I would bet.

As I said, against villains assumed range this hand is as good as any straight or non-nut flush. So in relative hand strength, hero is at the top of his range. That doesn't mean that hero HAS to call, if he has reason to believe that villain isn't bluffing there. But it's good to understand that if hero folds 100% of his range, he can be exploited.

As I think there, the one hand that might check-call there is nutflush. Or full houses if hero has a read that opponent likes to bluff rivers with missed draws.

And I would bet the turn too, villain is going to check a lot there with his medium strength hands and flush draws.

Folding this hand still doesnt mean folding 100% of heros range... Even if the hand value is practically same for bluffcatching, some combos are better than others.

Same applies when villain is polarized to nutflush or blocker non paired boards. It doesnt matter that your 3hi flush has same strenght as 2nd nut flush. You want to make sure not call too wide, reasonable way is to draw line somewhere and drop weakest combos imo.