KK ~ Pre

I'd never fold after just 62 hands on a guy.

Originally posted by imfar
I'd never fold after just 62 hands on a guy.

But there are times you would fold KK pre @ 10NL?

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD & Database

NL Holdem $0.10(BB)
UTG ($10)
HJ ($14.16)
CO ($9.06)
HERO ($10)
SB ($25.31)
BB ($8.47)

Dealt to Hero K♥ K♦

UTG Folds, HJ Raises To $0.3 (Rem. Stack: 13.86), CO Folds, HERO Raises To $1.3 (Rem. Stack: 8.7), SB Folds, BB Raises To $3.0 (Rem. Stack: 5.37), HJ Folds, HERO ???

I only have 6 hands on villain and absolutely no reads yet other than that he's not topped up to 100bb's.

Originally posted by TakingAShot

Originally posted by imfar
I'd never fold after just 62 hands on a guy.

But there are times you would fold KK pre @ 10NL?

Let's say if he was a proper nit with 14/10 3bet 1 after 3k hands then why not.

I was thinking that perhaps we could of folded this, I mean he's shown such strength by 3betting UTG then jamming me, I mean is it ever not aces here?

But Villian is SB here not UTG right? But SB 3bet is quite strong here.

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD & Database

NL Holdem $0.10(BB)
UTG ($10)
HJ ($14.16)
CO ($9.06)
HERO ($10)
SB ($25.31)
BB ($8.47)

Dealt to Hero K♥ K♦

UTG Folds, HJ Raises To $0.3 (Rem. Stack: 13.86), CO Folds, HERO Raises To $1.3 (Rem. Stack: 8.7), SB Folds, BB Raises To $3.0 (Rem. Stack: 5.37), HJ Folds, HERO Raises To $8.7 (allin) (Rem. Stack: 0.0), BB Calls $5.37 (allin) (Rem. Stack: 0.00)

Flop ($18.82) J♠ K♣ 9♥

Turn ($18.82) J♠ K♣ 9♥ 9♦

River ($18.82) J♠ K♣ 9♥ 9♦ 2♦

BB shows A♠ A♣

HERO wins $17.96

Did I think he had Aces? Yes, absolutely. I also know that he doesn't statistically and with no information other than that he's not topped up on a network that doesn't have auto top up I simply cannot justify folding KK here pre no matter how much I may want to. It's -EV to fold it in any circumstances unless, as has already been pointed out, you have some extremely credible reads and history on villain.

@CucumbaMan:

Agreed on the sb announcing he had Aces. You still can't fold this.

Sometimes he has QQ, sometimes AK. It would need to be some kind of a special case if I decided to fold KK preflop.

You need to win this 38% of the time to break even. Villain must have AA, 2 remaining combos of AKs and 2 out of 6 combos of QQ for you to have 40% equity.

Originally posted by la55i
Sometimes he has QQ, sometimes AK. It would need to be some kind of a special case if I decided to fold KK preflop.

You need to win this 38% of the time to break even. Villain must have AA, 2 remaining combos of AKs and 2 out of 6 combos of QQ for you to have 40% equity.

Just feels stronger then QQAK when he takes a line like this. Perhaps i'm wrong though, care to run a filter?

Originally posted by TakingAShot

Did I think he had Aces? Yes, absolutely.

I would like to know how you were sure he had hand like that? i would like to know the stats of the V so i can use it as ref if it fits my play style

The way the hand was played i only know he had a monster card.

To get a bigger sample I didn't put in positions or anything, so these are 5bet hands on all of the positions. I don't think it makes a big difference since I think it should be super tight no matter what the position and action before is.
This might be a bit difficult to read, but these are all hands where a player had an opportunity to 5bet. Blue hands are calls and green hands are 5bets. The darker the color the less frequent the spot is.

So from this picture you can see that there are a lot or random stupid 5bets also, like with K7o, A5o, 92s and so on. But when we start looking at the frequencies we can see that KK+,AK is 5bet most of the time. AKo has been 5bet 50/50, same thing with QQ. JJ is most often called but there is a reasonable amount of 5bets with JJ too.

As stated there are a lot of people who are trying to get the money in preflop when they got QQ+ and AK and are happy that you givethemthe action. You got 57% equity against that which is way more than you need to find a call.

I am fearing the Aces aswell when i got KK but dont let it affect your decisions

this spot is considerably different than 5bet in all positions.
- SB reg 3bets against MP reg (a small part of population will flat even QQ/AK here)
- hero cold4bets with a very large sizing (a small part of population will also not just blindly ship QQ/AK here, may even fold)

i feel this is still a slightly profitable spot but you are certainly not printing money. in any case just move on with life, this is not something that's going to greatly impact your winrate

Originally posted by Tomaloc
this spot is considerably different than 5bet in all positions.
- SB reg 3bets against MP reg (a small part of population will flat even QQ/AK here)
- hero cold4bets with a very large sizing (a small part of population will also not just blindly ship QQ/AK here, may even fold)

i feel this is still a slightly profitable spot but you are certainly not printing money. in any case just move on with life, this is not something that's going to greatly impact your winrate

Posts like this, and the same understanding being presented in the videos here, are just two of the reasons I eventually settled in here at PS.com with all of the poker training sites out there to choose from. There is definitely a sliver of the population (and on some networks, a bit more than a sliver) that will be as nitty with GII preflop as you outline here. Until people put in a lot of cash volume on a non rec network, they won't see play like that.

You still have to go broke here but understanding position vs position ranges, as well as how narrow some of those ranges are, will absolutely have more of an effect on your winrate than worrying about a totally standard hand here. Get used to things like this because they're going to happen regularly. You can't control that. Worry more about what you can control in the future and focus on that.

My mental game could not have been worse just a year ago but even I got to the point that I don't think twice about hands like this. Once you put in a bit more volume, you won't even look at the results of some of these all ins when you're multitabling. Let's be honest: Once the money's in, what difference does it really make until you do post session analysis?

Originally posted by Tomaloc
this spot is considerably different than 5bet in all positions.
- SB reg 3bets against MP reg (a small part of population will flat even QQ/AK here)
- hero cold4bets with a very large sizing (a small part of population will also not just blindly ship QQ/AK here, may even fold)

The filter I made isn't for this specific spot but it includes hands like this. For example that 87s hand that has been 5bet once was following -> MP open, CO 3bet,
BTN cold 4bet and CO 5bets with 87s.

I do agree that the spot is different, but does it make a difference in the 5betting range that is commonly used? As we can see from this filter it is most of the time KK+,AKs and AKo,QQ with a bit smaller frequency. I'm not sure if I changed this to blind vs blind, or someone 5betting a cold 4bet in relatively early positions, would it make a big difference? Sure in blind vs blind situations many might 5bet broke with JJ more lightly.

But anyway, my conclusion would be that villain probably has AKs,QQ often enough for us to profitably call here.

Originally posted by TakingAShot
I got to the point that I don't think twice about hands like this. Once you put in a bit more volume, you won't even look at the results of some of these all ins when you're multitabling. Let's be honest: Once the money's in, what difference does it really make until you do post session analysis?

This isn't a standard spot to herp and ship, which is why I post.

"once you put in a bit more volume"
how much volume have I put in?:f_drink:

Originally posted by la55i
I do agree that the spot is different, but does it make a difference in the 5betting range that is commonly used? As we can see from this filter it is most of the time KK+,AKs and AKo,QQ with a bit smaller frequency. I'm not sure if I changed this to blind vs blind, or someone 5betting a cold 4bet in relatively early positions, would it make a big difference? Sure in blind vs blind situations many might 5bet broke with JJ more lightly.

But anyway, my conclusion would be that villain probably has AKs,QQ often enough for us to profitably call here.

I just never see any sort of reg taking this line with AK/QQ. I'd never take the line myself. But perhaps I shouldn't overthink it:f_thumbsup:

Blind battle KK may in 99% of the time a preflop shove.
You just have the 100% information that villain will have here always AA when you want to fold KK pre.
That is an absolut standard set-up, and this time your KK cracked the rockets.
I would shove KK against this villain again in next situation.

If you don`t want to get broke with KK in BB vs. SB you will lose a ton of money in the long run

https://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/42554/

Diamond video. Hero folds KK pre but it's for a very good reason, with very sharp reads, and @ nosebleed stakes.

Fold and explanation behind it is roughly between 16:00 and 18:00, although the hand starts at around 12:00.