[PLO5] AJJ2ss 4bet - crazyness happens

My default approach is to not expect fe with 4bet as ton of players in small stakes underfold to both 3bet and 4bet. So to make light 4bet I want to have some form of read villain being decent reg and/or seeing villain to actually fold earlier.

In any case I doubt this sort of hand is that great to 4bet though not sure what sort of hands are 4bet-folding 200bb deep. I think sometimes actually using hand like AKKx make sense 100bb deep as you do good versus non AAxx and if villain shove they usually have AAxx. 100bb deep we can also 4bet-call like AJJTds type hand with aim to get those KK and QQ to fold but being pot committed once facing 5bet.

Good pot on flop and easy shove on turn. As question to you what is your equity versus KKxx and how much you need equity to stack off assuming no fe?

River as played is good to x-c imo. Villain never has boat. So question is if villain shove flush for value and I think its likely. Trips are something that might call shove but check behind. But nice thing of check is to also give busted straight draw chance to bluff.

PS: In general dont post hand result but end action at last decision point unless showdown is something you want to ask about. Still use spoiler to hide results to not let it affect thought processes as easily.

thanks will optimize posting in the future(the format)

And have to agree, on turn is where i went wrong (if leaving out the fact that i could just fold pre to 3bet)^^
The question i am not sure if i understand it right. have to assume you aiming at the fact, that based on me picking up a fd even against KK i am good here with how much money is already in the middle?
Equity i need should be 4/19 = ~0,2 - so ~20% which probably i have most of the time unless he blocks diamond hard.
thanks for pointing this out - its easy to forget that we have math to help in a moment like this.

for most situations this kinda became standard/automatic (like "ah should be about this, so this is a go") but in this situation i just didnt have that happening. maybe because i was still stuck on playing this hand in the firstplace or more likely because i (actively) think about it too little in general.

Something to look up, put on my study cheat sheet again and will focus on in my next sessions.

Yeah that was my point that even if villain show KK it wouldnt be that bad to stack off and almost always we are good here in reality.

In poker its good to understand certain rules. E.g. if villain pot we need 33% equity for direct pot odds. Versus half pot 25%. Train calculating implied pot odds as well. With 2+2 rule you can roughly define equity based on outs. This is very important part of omaha especially in aggressive tables as we often end up in low SPR spots where we want to make good decisions. Often we are not thrilled to stack off but we just have bit too much equity to fold. Here is different SPR and required equity to stack off assuming no fe.

For this hand call is fine imo at least if villain is likely to overplay stuff postflop. Deep stacks helps for implied odds then.

very nice chart, thanks a lot!
i mean this i studied for holdem ofc, but this was easy more than 15 years ago ♦
So this was the perfect reminder to refresh on it and not just rely on rusty memory.

PLO is a game where in big pots we often have a made hand vs a draw. If you know the math in those spots you can make +EV decisions while opponents make mistakes.

As Ghaleon pointed out, equity is always based on your outs. And in PLO you can estimate your equity with 2+2 formula, which means outs times two, plus two. That is the probability of hitting your outs on the next street.

Example, on the turn you have 9 outs. 9x2+2=20, giving you 20% chance to hit them. If you are getting money in on the flop, you can just multiply your outs by 4 and it's close enough.

If you have over 10 outs, you can use 2+3 to give a bit more precise number, but 2+2 is often close enough.

Then you can work on implied odds, as that is an area that is super important in PLO. And even decent regs make simple mistakes with their draws all the time.

Let's say we have a flush draw, we are quite sure opponent has a straight, and he bets 3/4 on the turn. Should we call with the flush draw? What if he pots? What if he bets half a pot? What if he has a set?

Let's say he bets 3/4, and we are oop. If pot is 40, and he bets 30, we would need 30% equity (invest 30 to win a pot of 100, 30/100). With 9 outs (flush draw) we have just 20%. Not enough. So if opponent shoved, we would have an easy fold. But what if we estimate, that opponent will give us value, if we hit the flush? Then the question is how much we need value on the river, to justify our turn call?

20% is 1/5. So we make the flush one out of five times. We are investing 30, so to be break even we need to win that five times back when we hit. That is 150. Now after our call the pot would be 100, which means we need over 50 in value to make the turn call profitable. This is called implied odds.

So now on the turn, when opponent bets, we should make a quick calculation and realize we need at least 50 as value on the river if the flush comes. If opponent has over 50 in his stack, it might happen. Now we have to estimate how often opponent calls and how much. But if we hit the river, we need to lead ourselves. If we check, opponent checks back with his straight very often and we don't get any value, making our turn call -EV.

And that is the mistake regs are doing. They call on the turn oop with a draw that requires implied odds, and they check the river when they hit it. And opponent checks back. That is bleeding money away in the long run.

yes its a mistake to easily make, also its hard to actually know how much villain will invest after we hit, even when we lead oop there is a good chance to walk away "empty handed".
Implied odds are definetly a dangerous game to play ^^ even 15 years ago it was already kind of a running joke to justify horrible play based on implied odds and a concept thats easily overvalued, still a mistake to neglect it.
Kind of a thin line to walk on.
As for equities, FD/straight % based on boards etc i know mostly by heart, kinda like riding a bike, at some point you have just done this often enough and you can do it without even holding the handlebars. same is true for most potodd stiations, but especially because it becomes such an automatic response its easy to be overwritten by what the ego sees in a certain moment if you rarely actually process this actively (which i really do too little).
Like in this hand, i know i can't fold, i know my ~20% to make a flush - or actually more ~18% if we discount the unclean out making a boat (if viallain really has KK) - but i have trips myself which gives me this one back so back to 20%.
But playing the hand in a way i wasnt very confident in, overwrote this and kept me busy thinking about how i potentially misplayed this making me afraid to even misplay this more.... if that makes sense? ♦ Like you carry a cup of coffee thats pretty full, you know you can walk with it just fine, but something distracts you, you start to focus on the cup and suddenly something you know you do super smoothly becomes an act of effort - here you can stop and focus back on the basics or you keep walking focussing on the cup spilling all over the place ^^
So for me i think its important to remember to more often take a step back, check if my basics are still intact and move forward confidently again.
So really appreciate the reminders and definetly will try to take my time at least a few times each session to just go through the basics instead of non stop cycling along without holding the handlebars.