PLO50 KK66r 3bet pot postflop line?

I think raising flop is fine because I see villain bet/broke many other weaker hands like top2 or draws(+pairs), maybe due to this non GTO sizing he can even find a fold. you also wont like most of the turns unless they are <5 non d.

KK helps a little bit in rare cases we are behind, dont forget that. as played I also like turn+river because as you mentioned too much SDV to turn into a bluff

Raising flop does not look good to me, without reads on villain. If villain is loose and calls non-nutted draws I would start raising it.

Originally posted by efkay
I think raising flop is fine because I see villain bet/broke many other weaker hands like top2 or draws(+pairs),

top2 by itself is no justification to raise. a regular should fold other hands or reshove combo-draws which would not help us in terms of playability since he would put us indifferent. Top2 has a similar handstrength with bottom-set despite the equity difference because of its set-blocking effect. And there are no worse hands a solid opponent should be calling oop.

I think if you dont broke top2 in a 3bet pot OOP @SPR6 you are doing something wrong. in SRP/higher SPR scenario of course top2/bottom set should not get it it OTF but bottom set in 3bet pot I cant think of much better hands to broke.

on top villains range preflop seems too wide, therefore cbetting flop frequency too high and I would not be surprised seeing people GII OTF with worse than 2pair every now and then.

as I mentioned before you wont like almost any turn card so what is the point in calling?

Originally posted by efkay
I think if you dont broke top2 in a 3bet pot OOP @SPR6 you are doing something wrong. in SRP/higher SPR scenario of course top2/bottom set should not get it it OTF but bottom set in 3bet pot I cant think of much better hands to broke.

on top villains range preflop seems too wide, therefore cbetting flop frequency too high and I would not be surprised seeing people GII OTF with worse than 2pair every now and then.

as I mentioned before you wont like almost any turn card so what is the point in calling?

you misunderstood, I did not say top2 is not an allin hand. I said there are no worse hands that would go allin.

There are some fine turn cards like pairing card. And you need also some strong hands on dry runouts in case villain is multi-barreling.

Yeah as Mifascherano said if we raise flop we are not really pushing much if any equity advantage versus villain stack off range assuming villain doesnt overplay decent amount. Draws that should stack off are going to have plenty of equity (quite easily even ahead on very wet flop like this) and those sets have me completely crushed. His sizing is btw totally fine. In general half pot or pot approach apply more into SPR 4.5 or less spots where you can make game two street with pot, pot. But when SPR start to go deeper solutions like in plotrainer start to favor 1/3 and 2/3 bet sizes. If I remember right as it has been while since I used it previous time. Their chosen sizings are based on what they think are optimal simplifications. Of course if we use like monkeysolver we can use whatever sizings we want and solver will make it balanced basically. Though 1/10 pot or pot might not be ideal options ♦

One benefit of call is ability to have strong made hands more often on pairing or blank turns. Yeah there is not huge amount of blanks but in position we have nice informational advantage. Sometimes we will then fold best hand versus barrels but thats fine. If SPR had been like 4 I would have just got it in.

Would love to see a solver solution to this flop as hero please anyone.

with sd blocker bottom sets tend to just raise around 30% on this texture maybe
in our case here <5%, so think call is fine and the reasons explained too

btw the cbet 3/4 sizing by villain is like in the textbook too

Originally posted by ghaleon
In general half pot or pot approach apply more into SPR 4.5 or less spots where you can make game two street with pot, pot.

Yes that´s sth I just recognized recently, it´s interesting how Solver varies sizings. Also, that solver uses smaller sizings (50% instead of 75% bets otf ie.) when we are 50bb deep.

Originally posted by efkay
Would love to see a solver solution to this flop as hero please anyone.

Solver is not messing around and pot-raises a decent junk of hands, but KKxx is not part of it. To do so he requires at least an additional flushdraw.

are you analyzing KK66 pure OP @ QT5 flop?

Sry, there was no QT6 board so I took QT5, I forgot to change the trips. I have KK55 now. There is no difference, strategy is the same since I analyzed KK overall too. So you do call when you have bottom-set specifically (as I said ♠_biggrin: ).

Solver is potting with all KK+ flushdraw and calling all other KKxx (there should not be too much). And I do differentiate those hands in my check-ups. GTO puts it whole game around apparently insignificant side-cards and it kinda often makes the difference between calling/checking or betting/raising.

Originally posted by BradNitt

btw the cbet 3/4 sizing by villain is like in the textbook too

Solver is betting half-pot only in dynamic boards in 3bp oop.

dipping my toes into data analysis at the moment^^
thought it could be a good spot for exercise and had in mind to investigate some gapped broadway boards with a ten and semi-connected low card.
thought i could generalize it but the difference between Khigh and Qhigh flops was quite interesting:

then realized its a special hu situation, where villian should have quite a good advantage at the top range regarding to sets and axx suited bw stuff, rundowns and checked that out as well.

just to show that we're not doing super well on all fronts and that's why don't want to narrow the range of villain too much as explained here already and that it makes sense not blindly go all in with pure sets without backups.
and what was also came to mind that villain raises too much preflop or is too loose not that often fits to hu where he should 3b around 18% for example, from my experience.

Solver is potting with all KK+ flushdraw

why does solver raise pot with OP+2nd NFD but just calls 3rd nuts? why do you analyze Co vs BU when its HU? the way you did it BU is PFA so CO is donking. that is too different spot to me to compare, sorry. also stacksize dont fit, try SBvsBU instead IMO.

the difference between Khigh and Qhigh flops was quite interesting

why does solver raise K high Flops with bottom set more often than on Q high flops? preflop agressor should have more sets of kings in his range than queens? Because on K high flops he has more draws?!

I dont get the PIO(?) output tbh. one of the reasons I transitioned to PLO is that range vs range equitys? is it that his Ace highs are better than ours? his nothing is better than ours? what is the key point to look for here?

yeah, his cbet sizing is totally fine, I agree. still Im not convinced/get the idea of calling bottom set here, although you guys all explained in detail, my bad:s_ugly:

bottom line is: you dont raise flop here because you dont expect to get called by worse but flipping at best when its all in vs combodraws or fucked vs better sets? I can live with that and happily raise on my stakes because I expect these guys to go broke with bottom pair and gutshots ^^

on the other side the turn plan sucks hard: either you see a scare card and another bet and you go for fold, or you have an action killer

In Holdem when we talk about balancing, what they mean is to have different qualities of handstrengths in your range so you can stepwise initiate and encounter aggression and continue to play with a desired portion of your range.

In Plo balancing is more to having different hand categories over different streets to be prepared range-wise at different textuers and runouts.

So when we have overpair+flushdraw our equity is always at least pretty good. We do not account for a worst case scenario where villain would have sth like nutflushdraw+2pair, that´s just too rare. Usually we have 2 outs to overset + flushdraw against the nuts. As I said we need strong made hands too on runouts that pair up or do not bring a flush otherwise opponent could exploit as by overbluffing such runouts explicitely. In the end those hands all have similar equity and it´s more crucial how to support a general playing high frequency (equity realization). So if we have sth weaker like 2pair we can call once or twice and villain does not have easy multi-barrels.

I get the idea of balancing and KKhh makes sense obv. But isnt the idea of just calling/slowplaying strong made hands to strengthen you calling range when you have some extras to it so you dont mind seeing another street?

ooh I might now see it. we hold FDblocker and Straigthdrawblocker in OPs hand. now I wonder if we raise flop if we dont ♦

Originally posted by efkay
I get the idea of balancing and KKhh makes sense obv. But isnt the idea of just calling/slowplaying strong made hands to strengthen you calling range when you have some extras to it so you dont mind seeing another street?

ooh I might now see it. we hold FDblocker and Straigthdrawblocker in OPs hand. now I wonder if we raise flop if we dont ♦

Yes this is also true. When you have sth like set+nfd you would just call and then it´s slowplay.

One reason solver calls bottom set is to protect (balance) calling range. If it raises almost all sets, it would have problem having balanced range when board pairs with hands that call the flop.

As said above, call is good option overall. If we had reads that opponent overplays hands in 3bet pots (like some players stack off with any draw, any pair etc.), it would make sense just to get it in.