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PLO50 KJ98ss taking K blocker too far?

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ghaleon
Joined: 17.10.2007

No reads on villain. Likely not solid reg with that stack though.

Perhaps should just check flop without bdfd either. After flop cbet though I kind of like to then go for barrel. This kind of makes good bluff especially on blank sort of rivers. River does complete 34 but its pretty unlikely combo for SB. I think most of time villain has QJT, AQT, Ax two pairs type of hands. Less than AK is in pretty tough spot though so I have found my bluffs to work very often with K blocker.

SB has 21€ behind on river.

Game #1804368992: Table €50 PL - 0.25/0.50 - Pot Limit Omaha - 16:49:37 2023/01/10
Seated players
Seat 1: CG_ (€0) (sitting out)
Seat 2: KrokoLoko4 (€63.93)
Seat 3: Tinure (€49.25)
Seat 4: Krzysiek_s00 (€66.61)
Seat 5: Joostwoensel (€33.16)
Seat 6: Dennis774 (€108.95)
Blinds and button
Krzysiek_s00 has the button
Joostwoensel posts small blind €0.25
Dennis774 posts big blind €0.50
Hole cards
Dealt to Tinure 9♦:K♠:8♣:J♠:
Preflop
KrokoLoko4 folds
Tinure raises €1.75 to €1.75
Krzysiek_s00 folds
Joostwoensel calls €1.50
Dennis774 calls €1.25
Flop K♥:2♦:A♣: (5.25€)
Joostwoensel checks
Dennis774 checks
Tinure bets €2.62
Joostwoensel calls €2.62
Dennis774 folds
Turn 6♠: (10.49€)
Joostwoensel checks
Tinure bets €7.86
Joostwoensel calls €7.86
River 5♥: (26.21€)
Joostwoensel checks
Tinure bets €26.21


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14 replies
efkay
Joined: 25.03.2005

I like the flop bet. you block pairs high wraps and callingrange of BU dont have to be A-heavy.

if we dont get both to fold at least we might get HU and deny some equity of one of them. I check turn because I see a little SDV, cant tell what a recreational (stackread) call OTF and would fold to this turn.

OTR as played I understand that you dont want to invest 2 streets and give up but with the read and smelling an extra portion of wheelstraight combos incoming and seeing fish calldown A-2pairs so often I think I give up


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BradNitt
Joined: 22.07.2011

no fan of the cbet :f_cool:
think we are ip vs 2 players from the blinds, if i read correctly. co vs sb,bb

even versus 1player(sb) our hand would check back without bdfd, as mentioned.
think because the improvement abbility to strenghten our barrels and also we just can take our card for free to make a better hand on turn,flop is pretty dry and dont get an ace to fold anyway most likely as sassume sb is more the loose passive station when flatting sb and with his stacksize.
same basicly for turn, kinda feel turn might be even worse to barrel on. because we can again improve for free and have chance to decide valuebet on river. with that line getting kinda forced to barrel on on river. also we might still be ahead against the station, which is the small plus of beome heads up.
river guess its okish as played, although its overplayed overall due to the earlier streets imo.
but theirs saying that it should be avoided making your mistakes bigger from earlier streets.


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Mascherano95
Joined: 09.10.2010

I think the cbet is fine as a bluff. We still have the top-range advantage and are supposed to bet frequently on such a dry heavy flop but be aware that SB´s calling range often is (and should be) strong and contains lots of KKxx and sometimes maybe AAxx aswell beside many AKxx and Axxx+sidevalue. I would not 2barrel the turn. I think once we decide to bluff the turn I´d rather triple-barrel (we are not trying to fold AKxx and KKxx but rather weaker 2pairs or pair+gs/9wrap stuff) but it is highly marginal because usually hands that called the turn are usually strong enough to call us down.


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efkay
Joined: 25.03.2005

even versus 1player(sb) our hand would check back without bdfd, as mentioned.

Interesting, I guess this is GTO line from trainers?! I guess one could exploit here non GTO players with a cbet, HU I cbet 100% I think here and only have 46% flop cbet overall.

Its funny because today I reviewed the hand and see myself checking back sometimes with second pair. being 3way this frequency increase for me so I really cant give a final answer on the flop cbet.

A classic analysis with PokerJuice could give a definitive answer but I dont have a sub anymore unfortunately.

but theirs saying that it should be avoided making your mistakes bigger from earlier streets.

thank you, that will help me stopping myself firing three barrels just because 2 barrels+giveup is very expensive :f_tongue:


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BradNitt
Joined: 22.07.2011

yes. overall if we take a 100bb strat, we would just cbet 44% on ak5 rb from the co. akj8ss wo bdfd overall 9%, our combo 0^^
and being mw and with a shortstack i think it doesnt increase that frequency. should cr quite frequently as well.

for 50bb overall strat it would change, because our openrange is tighter too. but i assume as only the the sb has around 55bb, that was not realy take into consideration preflop. can just check it out hu because mw dont have the spot with two players oop versus us. pokerjuice i dont have sub too.

your 46% cbet is quite ok too i would say more on the lowside but guess you play also lot of mw pots on your limits mainly f.e. :)
but you could filter for mw spots. then 46% would be pretty high


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ghaleon
Joined: 17.10.2007

Yeah I think flop cbet is bad as we just lack equity. But often it's case that bad bets on earlier street can become good bluff candidates on later streets. I am not sure about turn barrel but for river our hand make ton of sense. Simply because we block strong hands (AK, KK) and we have only one blocker to villain auto fold range (J).


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BradNitt
Joined: 22.07.2011

thats true too. think suhepx likes that^^
but still the problem i see that we narrow down the range too much with 2 barrells, but the board is kinda dry and had not a ton of draws and villain has not much left.
of course our line on the river is credible too but i would assume that the needed fe here is lower than on plo1k f.e. with still 200$ left instead of 20$ where probably almost every two pair at least will look you up. :f_drink:


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Mascherano95
Joined: 09.10.2010

Originally posted by ghaleon
Yeah I think flop cbet is bad as we just lack equity. But often it's case that bad bets on earlier street can become good bluff candidates on later streets. I am not sure about turn barrel but for river our hand make ton of sense. Simply because we block strong hands (AK, KK) and we have only one blocker to villain auto fold range (J).

We are not c-betting to push equity. xD Mid-pair is a good randomizer for bluffs since it blocks continuing ranges decently. Or what kind of hands do you bluff here beside QJ, QT and JT gutshots, they do not make up the mentioned 44% of a 30% CO opening range .. (also some have to be checked back for balance purposes) ..


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BradNitt
Joined: 22.07.2011
Spoiler

Spoiler

this is filtered for mid-pair with sd blocker
we would bet mainly with pocket pairs as side cards. (like 1 to 4 ratio maybe)
think it's about the efficiency of betting. with midpair we still have decent equity and with 3 free side cards better chance to improve and its for free ip. Also pocket pairs would become more effective blockers than a single jack but also wouldnt mind bet folding as the equity/ chance to improve is lower and also would get checked raise less by semi bluffs because of the blockers.


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ghaleon
Joined: 17.10.2007

Obviously we don't push equity but it helps to have some nutty potential like bdfd.

I wonder if pocket pair as side component is also about nuttiness. Referring to those K664 type. If we hit set it's often best hand compared to mediocre two pair. Of course chance to improve from one pair is also smaller so check has less value.

Hand like KTTx is definitely good cbet but likely not great barrel hand at least for blank rivers.


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tranceactor
Joined: 09.11.2006

I am a nit and I would not cbet the flop. Saying that, I don't think further bets are good while river seems burning money tbh. 2pairs that call turn are not folding on a blank river. So, you are more or less bluffbetting against KQJT and AQJT only


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Mascherano95
Joined: 09.10.2010

Betting midpair + pocket pair absolutely makes sense to me, we have bad potential to improve to 2pair so we rather turn our pair blocker into a bluff. All I can see on those pics is, that solver is well mixed doing both betting and checking like it does in many situations and often you cannot even see a pattern. So it does not say we should check it in particular. If you start checking alls mid-pairs that´s probably too much of a leak... You need some randomizers and an ability to spot those hands ingame like I do with bdfd´s and/or straight draw blockers to approximate a frequency. Betting straight draw blockers makes sense because of the mentioned blocking effect and card removal, just you having it does not giving you more realizable equity. Your range vs range Equity is like pretty much the same anyways on similar boards with alls those combos.

I am not betting 100% mid-pairs lol. Idk what kind of semi-bluffs you are talking about on an AK2rb flop when we are up against unknown. He is not supposed to have lots of wheels. The average players does not check-raise his AQTx top-pair+gutshot and first it´s probably not a good idea either from his perpective. I mean I havent seen that move once over like 100k hands. What your plan is here when you check all mid-pairs? I mean what I could imagine is calling a bluff on a river blank with mid2-pair after turn went check-check aswell but that´s something not many player do with the Ace on board? But if they do that might be a note. I´d say solver is even mixing all twopairs or better on dry flops and not betting or checking them in a recognizable pattern either. Ofc with some tendencies like betting top-set more often. And you cannot imitate this spot like solver since idk how much combos that would be to memorize.

PS: Against nits and most tags it´s a cbet anways even if they check-raise all their gutters, I mean that´s not only unbalanced but also kind of stupid in a tight environment and nobody does something like that not even someone who has 80/50 with 35% 3bet and AF 6. That is the power of the Ace and the common knowledge that it is well presented in all ranges. So stab and take down with that improved scare-effect and know where you are. Because he will fold so much (everything weaker than top-pair which is a lot alrdy). No need to balance stuff here. We are miles away from GTo anyways against 99% of population on this flop. In general regulars check-fold without Ace+backup (usually gs), set or wrap which is reasonable against all those tight cbettors like you but if we want to make money we definitely want to bet more than 45%. I think sth like 60% is fine to start out until villain starts check-raising solver-like frequency or widening check-calls with its top-pair range.

PPS: Against nits or players with VPIP lower than 20 I would even cbet around 80%. Yesterday I had that nit 14/9 openraising from UTG and after him check-calling twice I knew he had set at least but the river brought a broadways straight and I tried to bluff him off his top-set on this scare-card with a pot-sized bet with a random blocker from a like 10%+ capped cold-calling range preflop. Did not work lol but he tanked around like a half minute pretty fun in hindsight since my turn barreling range was likely more hands already than his opening range xD.

PPPS: He was not unknown we had a decent history of thousands of hands and I already figured him out pretty well. I am not bluff triple-barreling nits as a manner of habit lol.


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BradNitt
Joined: 22.07.2011

Originally posted by Mascherano95
So it does not say we should check it in particular.

sure it does. i did already mention it in previous posts and just wanted to show for some betting hands.
we didnt also say that we should check all mid pairs, although 3 way in the given scenario it would be pretty low and very picky, sure. why not

Spoiler

:Kx:, mid pair without bdfd, pocket pairs,SD, backdoor wheeldraws

Spoiler

K♥:, mid pair, same filter

Spoiler

kj89 !bdfd

Spoiler

K♥: j98

Spoiler


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Mascherano95
Joined: 09.10.2010

Unless we have K♥: J98 in particular there is still some frequency of checking going on. So if you simplify it to check all mid-pairs without bdfd etc.. what hands you bluff c-bet here? Maintaining solver-like frequency is kinda more important than picking the exact combos


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