Skip to forum
Notifications
Clear all

3-bet nut FD OTF (advanced)

6 Posts
5 Users
5 Reactions
434 Views
FriskyArt
Joined: 27.10.2009

So I got dealt A9s in HJ and put in a standard 3x raise. BTN calls and so do both blinds. Multiway pot to see the flop.
BB (unknown) leads for a 1/2 pot sized bet and I have a decision to make.

Obviously I'm never folding the nut FD. I choose to semi-bluff raise I wouldn't mind to take it down and if I get called I'm never in terrible shape with 27-35% EQ. The only problem is he might 4-bet shove and then I need 29% to call putting me pretty much in a dead spot. I could opt to play more careful and choose to flat instead. Here is the hand and see what happened:

PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 71.8 BB
SB: 63 BB
BB: 80.4 BB
UTG: 365 BB
Hero (MP): 184 BB
CO: 103.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 9♣ A♣

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, SB calls 2.6 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (12 BB, 4 players) J♣ 6♣ T♥
SB checks, BB bets 5.8 BB, Hero raises to 29 BB, fold, fold, BB raises to 77.4 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 48.4 BB

Turn: (166.8 BB, 2 players) 3♣

River: (166.8 BB, 2 players) J♠

BB cashed out 103.6 BB for a fee of 1 BB

Spoiler

BB shows 6♦ T♦ (Two Pair, Jacks and Tens)
(Pre 40%, Flop 65%, Turn 9%)
Hero shows 9♣ A♣ (Flush, Ace High)
(Pre 60%, Flop 35%, Turn 91%)
Hero wins 159.8 BB

I have thought it over and over, even ran into solver but I can't seem to find what the max EV play is. Am I missing something or is this one of those spots where there is no right or wrong play? Let's hear it :f_cool:


Reply
Quote
5 replies
ghaleon
Joined: 17.10.2007

Well BB leading in 4way pot looks pretty strong so question is how much fe you have? You also have two other players left to act so that will decrease fe further. Point being our chance to win with semibluff raise here is imo low. Of course it does look strong and perhaps villain should even find fold with fairly strong holdings but I kind of doubt he will. There are also downsides in raise in a way that we want to keep weaker draws in overall. If we get flush over flush or flush over straight to happen it will likely give us huge value.

We should also ask how high this hand is in our range? Plain nfd is ok hand but not that great without additional equity. In this case if villain shove there is fairly high chance hitting A is not helping us. But if we had e.g. A♣:Q♣: or A♣:T♣: or 9♣:8♣: we would have additional equity. Hand like 9♣:8♣: would also benefit from potentially getting better fd or sd to fold with raise.


Reply
Quote
FriskyArt
Joined: 27.10.2009

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. My thought was if I flat call I give them a good price so, yes they can all join the party but when a 3rd club comes the action would be pretty much dead. Everybody fears the flush, especially in a multiway pot. In order to maximize value I usually like to semi-bluff with these draws for a variety of reasons, to disguise the real strength, taking the pot when they fold or building the pot when they call. While this might be a good strategy in a different scenario, I agree that this was not the best approach in this spot and a call behind would be the better approach. While I was figuring out the equity & odds I didn't really (actively) considered FE in my thinking process and I always considered that it is somewhat groping in the dark, but you actually explained it well how it actually is relevant :f_thumbsup:


Reply
Quote

Fully agree with ghaleon. FE is the most important factor here in order to consider raise or call witch seems to be close to zero. Players are usually honest in mw pots.

If a stack off happens you will be up against top pair at least. Big portion of the time you will be dog. I want to add that you have 2 players behind. So calling will be even more preferable because they might quailify for the pot as well giving you more than decent odds.

P.S. Your move OTF is not a 3bet it's a "2bet". The confusion comes because of no blinds postflop. Example

Player 1 bets, Player 2 raises, Player 1 re-raises then it's a 3bet


Reply
Quote
PfarrerSensemann
Joined: 16.08.2017

Ahoi,
and not to forget: 4way there is a high chance someone has some Clubs too, you may only have 7 Outs for the Flush.
And what if Turn or River is the T♣: ?
3 Opponents can have lots of Combos of Sets and 2Pairs.

Maybe you only have 6 clear Outs.
So you really should play your Nutflush-Draw more passively and more cautiously.

Just my 2 Cents


Reply
Quote
Moderator
SDK1987
Joined: 12.11.2008

Also the player that's leading is on the short side. So if you raise like now you are prized in to call a shove and I don't think a weaker player on NL5 is capable to fold 2 pair or low set in a spot like this. Even if you try to represent a set. In this situation villain has most likely the weakest hand that he/she would play like this.

Cheers,
SDK1987


Reply
Quote