3BP 3-way

Shove turn. Too weak to slowplay and u have no SDV either

When he pots turn he's never folding vs a shove. So unless he's shoving Q high I'm always behind. Why shove when I have 0FE and I'm not getting value either. Plan was to just call turn and fold brick river. Why put 25bb more into the pot as IP when I'm 100% behind? Yes I have 0 SDV but he's never fold. Am I missing something here?

Originally posted by BunBun00
When he pots turn he's never folding vs a shove. So unless he's shoving Q high I'm always behind. Why shove when I have 0FE and I'm not getting value either. Plan was to just call turn and fold brick river. Why put 25bb more into the pot as IP when I'm 100% behind? Yes I have 0 SDV but he's never fold. Am I missing something here?

I doubt it that he is folding 0%. For UTG it is also very hard to hit that flop at all, but there is some possibility that he has a flushdraw/GS/overpair or a combination of those which all make protection/semi-bluff bets. There are players who continue more tight oop 3way but nobody has 0% bluffing frequency (unless he is just bad and bet-calls hands he should not or is someone who gives bet-sizing tells - commonly there are fish who primarily pot top-range especially on straight textures indeed). If there are just a few combos he'd be willing to stab and fold (bare NFD, middle 2pair) it adds to our EV as we should be close to auto-profit zone with 40% break-even equity as a minimum required for SPR2.

Generally spoken in theory you'd like to call if you have implieds (but you obv. need a nutty draw otherwise you give reverse implieds) or to bluffcatch with SDV, none of those is the case here. The naked 13-wrap by itself is not good enough to call for implieds, with 11 outs you have 3:1 odds. And your NN-flush does not have enough visibility cause it could be dominated easily. If he is that tight he also might not pay your straight off. So the draw components by themselves are too weak to continue but together they are strong enough to gii handstrength-wise at low SPR (up to SPR 4 I'd gues and this is SPR 2).

I mean you can still fold if you think he delay cbets overly tight but calling is probably a mistake.

Well played imo. I would not expect any real fe when UTG pots 3way SPR 2 and I doubt even solver would have pot folds or at least very infrequently. If he used smaller sizing like half pot we can make argument for shove creating fe.

On turn we just have too high raw equity to fold. Yes sometimes fd is not alive but it's not such big issue as we have very little behind. Very often when we improve there is going to be some missed draws and we likely get remaining 1/3 pot value. Opponent is also getting great pot odds and is usually going to be sticky.

Yeah, no reason to shove turn as we never win the pot (or at least often enough) with K high. We save 25bb when we totally miss the river.

Not sure if we should 3bet when the shorty is involved. The problem is that most likely is sticking with the hand and we end up either 3way on the flop or someone 4bets. And our hand is not that great. I know solver like to 3bet that, but the EV is not that great compared to calling. And we have to remember that the lower the SPR is, the harder it is for opponents to make mistakes (= we make profit in EV). So our edge should be better in higher SPR and IP, which imo turns the marginal 3bet to a call. As in my opinion, our EV is better with a call unless opponents are quite good. Which is not the case as UTG has wider RFI and other one is playing with 40bb.