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PLO100 T876ds 3bet standard but what if...?

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ghaleon
Joined: 17.10.2007

Game #2271414280: Table €100 PL - 0.50/1.00 - Pot Limit Omaha - 15:42:39 2025/06/23
Seated players
Seat 1: inceladoo (€145.39)
Seat 2: TX7Sahur (€219.04)
Seat 3: Ritaty (€100)
Seat 4: TILTMEEEE (€97.68)
Seat 5: Nguyen8 (€100) (sitting out)
Seat 6: urnansmells (€113.06)
Blinds and button
TX7Sahur has the button
Ritaty posts small blind €0.50
TILTMEEEE posts big blind €1
Hole cards
Dealt to Ritaty 6♠:T♥:7♥:8♠:
Preflop
urnansmells raises €3.50 to €3.50
inceladoo calls €3.50
TX7Sahur folds
Ritaty raises €14.50 to €15
TILTMEEEE calls €14
urnansmells raises €60 to €63.50
inceladoo folds
Ritaty calls €48.50
TILTMEEEE calls €48.50
Flop 6♥:9♦:J♠: (194€)
Ritaty bets €36.50, and is all-in
TILTMEEEE calls €34.18, and is all-in
urnansmells calls €36.50
Showdown
Turn 4♦:
River Q♠:
Ritaty shows 6♠:T♥:7♥:8♠:, A Straight, Queen high
TILTMEEEE shows 3♥:T♠:K♥:Q♣:, A Straight, King high
urnansmells shows A♥:J♣:5♥:A♣:, A Pair of Aces
TILTMEEEE wins main pot, €293.54
Ritaty wins side pot #1, €4.64
Summary
Total pot €301.18 Rake €3

So gto wise my squeeze is kinda mandatory:

Now I dont think EV difference is quite that big in reality almost ever as our fold equity tends to be quite a bit lower than in theory. E.g. MP is supposed to fold half of his range which is very rarely happening. But still when EV difference is this big (over 0.5bb) in theory I dont mind this. In this hand I didnt have any read on table but I have been recently wondering how massively EV will drop with hands ike these if we also have player like BB cold calling 3bets with absurd range? Now obviously this is hard to evaluate but I feel like especially these sort of mid high ds rundowns we maybe want to just call with good reads on BB.


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Kyyberi
Joined: 09.07.2010

I am quite sure that if we make a sim where they both call this would not be a 3bet. The hand strength drops a lot when it goes 3way instead of HU pot. If you also know that BB likes to cold call 3bets, it becomes even more clear that it's a call. One of those situations where solver strategy is not optimal versus your average call-happy opponents.


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Mascherano95
Joined: 09.10.2010

PLO100 T876ds 3bet standard but what if...?

...we fold? Yes, at a loose table not being last to act having a hand with questionable nut-potential that can't push equity either, I think that's fine too. Calling is also an option imo if regulars behind us have significant mway leaks like a weak betting strategy or being overly passive. AND ofc overfold pre.^^

Now I dont think EV difference is quite that big in reality almost ever as our fold equity tends to be quite a bit lower than in theory.

The GTO EV difference is not that big? It's just ~0.15bb, BE basically (you lose something with rake but whatever). If there's a guy who cold-calls a 3bet and then everybody ends up in an all-in, solver probably is not very helpful for the specific situation. I think your thought process here could be flawed. Theoretically, if people are spewy, you'd rather take the passive line preflop (your mid-high rundown lacks preflop-allin domination potential but also performs pretty well on average being dominated itself less often which explains the equities - problem is as you already correctly pointed out, people just flat way too much oop). Hands that have BE or positive EV preflop in solver world benefit a lot from villain being able to fold against the 3bet. This heavily affects the way you want to construct your 3bet ranges (more than 0,15 bb). We need to add more higher ranks and premium pairs and fold more of the speculative combos like A+midpair or more badly connected mid-high rundowns. The T♠:8♥:7♥:6♠: despite being close in both terms of nut-potential and equity distribution (and for this could be folded against perceived tendencies) it would be still in the top-tier of my "rundown double-suited" category that's as a default tight 3-bet/squeeze against unknown.

Individual EV's should not be overvalued, they just represent a very tiny part of the stratagys' total EV, in this case the 3bet range where you still want to keep some hands of that category even so when the EV drops. So you could imagine it as "a hand with poor EV makes sure the EV of other combos from that line stay high". The 1-gapped rundown double-suited just compose a veeery smallish part of your overall 3bet range so it somewhat has a lot of "core-"character of ensuring a minimum of board coverage.Again when there is no EV gained by 3betting the combo itself and villain don't adapt when we put some of those hands into a different line, it depends on how villains ranges and perceptions and postflop play alters. Unless villain is an observing regular, those adjustments usually don't occur in a way, that can't be exploited aswell, but there's a higher risk of facing more difficult decisions later on when deviating early. So what I mean is, when you loosen up, villain will loosen up aswell to some degree but will find himself in spots he is unfamiliar defending and return to a point of his original (when reggish usually more tight) playstyle.

For the cold-call pre the top-gapper its polarized/deep-spr equity distribution is somewhat a sucker. The :6x::5x::4x: flop yields a nutstraight (without straightredraws possible, we'd need a :5x::4x:-x or :9x::5x::4x: to draw to a straight+redraw or have a :6x::5x::4x: or :9x::6x::5x: nutstraight+redraw. It's helpful to think about beforehand what we can hit especially being deep or in 5card. The hand is not trash like top-2gappers or top-bottom-gappers but significantly weaker than the :Tx::9x::7x::6x: and :Tx::9x::8x::6x: counterparts without top-gap. These are considerations to be made when entering SRP's. When villains are bad they don't have any perception of heros' 3-bet range so we don't need to balance our 3-bets and could call going for exploitative postflop play in position. Pre-EV solver-wise calling should be fine when implemented well but since CC-EV's in general suffer a lot from active players behind us I would argue openfold might be the better option (ie. with semi-connected :Tx::8x::7x::5x: or :Tx::7x::6x::5x: double-suited ie. would always recommend the fold in loose environements, all those good looking hands are actually suckers cause you can't hit those straight/-draws you want to continue at high spr well enough so with a substantial risk of being mway/oop there's actually no point playing em at all...

As played with dead money stacking off is no big deal imo, it's probably still somewhere around 0 unless their PF-ranges are well balanced or semi-tight and merged. An alternative more frequent scenario is that everybody calls which is probably pretty good if we play well postflop. So stacking off more loose here and there at marginal spots I often found helpful to have an image that gets paid, unless your pool is too big/anonymous you can also fold to avoid variance.

Call, Reraise, Fold?

"...in the end, it doesn't even matter."
- Linkin Park


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ghaleon
Joined: 17.10.2007

Folding is -0.5 so 0.65bb difference for 3bet on gto which is pretty sizable.

MP is likely under folding as most people are. CO should not theory wise fold almost anything anyway. Now in practise this range is likely too wide versus initial open as wide calling is most common leak. This will in general help somewhat as we are facing weaker range.


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Mascherano95
Joined: 09.10.2010

Folding is -0.5 so 0.65bb difference for 3bet on gto which is pretty sizable.

This is EV(Fold) vs solver though

MP is likely under folding as most people are

This decreases the EV(3bet) bringing all 3 options more close together (I would assume). You'd have to manually assess their ranges and let em run through a sim. Lots of work, so I can't say by how much neither.

CO should not theory wise fold almost anything anyway. Now in practise this range is likely too wide versus initial open as wide calling is most common leak. This will in general help somewhat as we are facing weaker range.

Not sure what you mean by this but generally from isolate preflop perspective as I have mentioned players behind us joining the pot is bad for our EV(total) as profitability of CC and RFI also depend on remaining players freq's to come along and it is furthermore bad for our specific hand. Also it does play a role how we plan to continue postflop after action is closed and what preflop constellations are more likely. In this context planning to come along for a triple barrel just because CO folds too much otr (SRP) or stacking off frequently against a 10% calling range that continues with decent frequencies (3BP) are not solid strategies. The gist is, if people behind us don't fold, we VPIP less.

Individual EV's should not be overvalued...

I'll repeat: Single EV's of isolated actions are pretty meaningless without the context of ranges and multistreet-EV's, which depend on villains tendencies. Even against fish and bad players having no position is still pretty bad and our hand does not perform well for the reasons mentioned in this chapter:

For the cold-call pre the top-gapper its polarized/deep-spr equity distribution is somewhat a sucker. ...

I am just evaluating the preflop play with quite limited information kinda. This does not mean, you can't still profitably bring the hand to another EV(max) end ⇒ (EV[call] ∨ EV[3-bet]) ⊆ EV[total] > EV[fold] ⊆ EV[total]. :coolface:


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