Tim64's Full-Tilted-Two-Tiered-Ticket-Tourney-Tumble!

This is a very nice idea Tim as those tourneys are incredibly soft, beyond imagination. I'm not a tourney player, just played a couple for fun and did allright sometimes.

Jsut remember play is so fishy you don't want to get involved in any pots without a premium hand since moves don't work.

I think you'll crash them easily and get a much better value for your points than some random good from the store.

Nice challenge! What type of SnGs does FTP offer at the $75 level, I know there are definitely Super Turbos but are there regular Turbos? The token levels (and FTP satalites) are extremely soft so I think you will do well. One of my goals is to reach the $75 SnG (especially if there are regular turbos) since there will always be plenty of fish at this level, usually with scared money. I played a few of the STs and I found that the limit was easier than the $15-30 levels!

Does anyone know what kind of traffic the $75 token level gets during peak times? Ie how many games running at once, preferably 9 man, turbos.

Thanks for all your comments, folks. I am pleased to report I now have 1 $26 token - yeah!!!

Spent 1800 FTP (approx $8.6) on entry to a Tier 1 SnG as part of a set of $22+2s just now. Managed only one second place in the 22s out of 5 , but won the Tier 1 by calling off a bubble shove with QQ and not getting sucked out.

Should be p***ed off at the 22+2 session as I was about 80$ below EV, but in fact I'm delighted.

@GunFlavoured; not sure about traffic but there are definitely both Turbos and Regular 9 man $75 token SnGs. Didn't see any Super Turbos just now but maybe at other times...

Challenge Progress:

FTP: 10,779
IM Medals: 65
$26 Tokens: 1(!)
$75 Tokens: 0

I dunno if this matters to you, but when you use your FTP in a STT/MTT the same amount of value that the prize pool is per player (aka the $ value of the buyin) is removed from your rakeback... this is why at FTP its better to just hold onto your FTPs and try for the motorcycle

if you want extra tokens try doing some of the full tilt academy challenges
5000 points = 1 $26 token
the sng challenges are easy

Originally posted by KidPokersKid
I dunno if this matters to you, but when you use your FTP in a STT/MTT the same amount of value that the prize pool is per player (aka the $ value of the buyin) is removed from your rakeback... this is why at FTP its better to just hold onto your FTPs and try for the motorcycle

Not quite correct, the value of your Buy In ($0.005 per FTP point) is deducted from your Net Earned Rake. You would only lose 27% of this value from rakeback so still cost effective imo.

I know what you mean about the Harley Davidson though, I think it was 1,000,000 ftp points and I've already got nearly 100k lol.

Good luck Tim, great challenge. I also do those tier tourneys occasionally, but will try to steer clear of you! Your Full Tilt user name is something logical to identify you I assume?, mine is

Best regards,

Bart

The more I look into FTP, the more I get the feeling that we can't avoid losing some of our 27% weekly rakeback when we spend the points.

Even if we hold out for the Harley (and I have a Honda CBR600 already...) we still lose rakeback when we cash the points in.

So until someone disproves me, I'm sticking to the theory that tourney tokens are the best value - especially to a tourney player.

One thing I have been mulling over: should I
a) wait until I have enough Iron Man medals for a $75 token; or
b) cash in the 140 medals - as soon as I acquire that many - on a $26 token?

In favour of a) is that if our ultimate aim is to cash in a $75 tourney, we eliminate the chance factor by buying our way straight in.

In favour of b) is that we can reasonably assume our edge at the $26 tourneys will be greater than at the $75 which effectively means that every $ we invest at the lower buyin tourneys is worth more than those invested in higher buyin tourneys. (However, note that our $/hr for 'crystallising' the rakeback should be the other way round).

In terms of the cost of the tokens, a $26 token is 140 IMM ($1 = 5.38 medals) and a $75 token is 400 IMM ($1 = 5.333 medals). So the $75 tokens are very marginally better value. Gut instinct tells me this isn't enough to outweigh the edge factor. But the $/hour is a tougher point. Whenever we play low limit tourneys (e.g. the 1800 FTP tourneys) at the expense of our mainstay SnGs, we are potentially sacrificing the $/hour we would have earned had we substituted a regular buyin SnG for the rakeback crystalising SnG.

Tricky... ♦

FTP: 15,305
IM Medals: 155
$26 Tokens: 1
$75 Tokens: 0

Over and Out
Tim64 - Full Tilt Poker Rakeback Bore

hi tim exciting new blog you have here

might i ask one thing though?

have you taken time = money into consideration as well?
i mean the time spent on converting the points into money through tournaments could also be spent playing your usual tournaments.

edit: oh sorry i missed what you wrote about this in your last post, sorry.

but i do think it ruins the possible value gained by playing these rb s&g

but i do think it ruins the possible value gained by playing these rb s&g

Well, I certainly believe we have to factor in the lost value. What I've been thinking lately is that if we can squeeze individual 'rakeback crystalisation' tournaments (my name for any SnG without a cash $ buyin that we enter to turn points or medals into dollars) into our sets at a roughly equivalent value, we do the minimum damage.

For example, at the moment, I am playing $22 SnGs. Well, if I swap one $26 token SnG for a regular SnG, I am in a sense maintaining roughly the same $/hour invested. Since we can look on our buyin for the token tourney as 'free', we should find our actual ROI for those sets where we play one token tourney is higher because we win a similar amount of $ for a lower amount invested.

It would be nice if we could just add an extra rakeback crystalisation tourney to our regular set. The problem with this is that once we exceed our maximum tourneys for our ability we drop concentration and lose ROI... (And then we negate the effect of the rakeback).

Very nice blog alot of good luck for you!

I will tell you about something i did in this
tier turnies...
I had only started here and had bankroll of
200$..
I entered the 4.4$ tier1 9ppl sng
when first win 26$ token i won.

Entered to the 18 ppl tier 2 sng
where 1-5 win 75$ token.
Won it.

Got to the tier 3 and won first! For the 310$

Just wrote to keep you going and rich high.
Gl again

Inspiration indeed!

Thanks - I shall be hoping to emulate your success!

Tim

Quick update while I'm in posting mode...

I've now played 5 of the 1800 FTP Tier 1 9 man SnGs which pay out 3 $26 tokens.

Results so far are 2 $26 tokens ($52 for 9000 FTP investment). This works out at $0.006 per FTP which compares favourably with the $0.0048 standard trade value which we get from dividing the the $72 prize pool by the 1800FTP x9 entrants (i.e. $72/16200 FTP).

To put it another way, I have increased the value of the 9000 FTP investment by $8.80 by investing them in tournament entries rather than spending them on FTP Store items.

Or, to put it yet another way, the FTP value of the $52 tokens is 10,833 at the 0.0048 exchange rate. Given an investment of 9000 FTP this is an equivalent profit of 1833 FTP which is an effective ROI of 20%.

I think you'll agree that these are pretty compelling stats after such a huge sample size as 5 tounaments ♦

I think you'll also agree that I need to get out more...

Laters,
Tim64

Challenge summary:
FTP: 13,500
IM Medals: 155+(85 on the way)
$26 Tokens: 2
$75 Tokens: 0

Now sometimes I put my foot in my mouth because I read something and then do my own math
but I am going to throw this one out there anyways..... If I have this correct then this is what I see...

You spent 9k points and you came up with $52.

9k points got you 5 games, which you got paid in 2 out of 5.

For 275 points you can enter the Satty for $12.

by my numbers, you get 32 chances at $12 instead of 5 chances at $26.

Downside being you get the $12 only if you place first, not 3 spots like the 1800 pointers.

but with ~6 times the chance doesnt that balance out??

And instead of having to use the tokens on specific buy ins your $t is yours to keep.

Again if I am wrong then good, I will learn something here. I am going to look at the tourneys now
to see if I can find something.

I am sure you are not wrong, 8979687.

As you say, the differing value of the 'chance' you are buying is not so great. 32 chances for $12 is the same as 16 chances for $24. This seemingly compares favourably with the "5 chances at $26" you mentioned. However, as you pointed out, we get 3 chances for the $26 tokens per tourney (because 3 places are paid) and that's the same as 3x5 chances, i.e. 15 chances for $26. So it seems that there's barely any difference (which you'd expect).

Now, I would have thought in general that FTP spent at lower buying tournaments have a higher $value (i.e. they will attract a greater ROI).

This is because the tournaments are softer the lower the buyin. I would therefore expect you to cash (i.e. come first) often enough to make spending the 275 points more 'profitable' point-for-point than on the 1800 Tier 1 tourneys.

But, and potentially it's a big 'but', it's not enough just to consider ROI. We also need to consider the opportunity cost of the time spent. For example, my ROI at the $6.50 turbo SnGs is higher than at the $22s. But that doesn't mean my $/hour will necessarily be greater (in fact, it is probably the other way round). Because there is a time cost when we play rake-crystalising tournaments (as with any poker variant) we do have to weigh up this too, when deciding how best to spend our points.

The $t is another factor to consider. Although you said these $t are 'yours to keep' I'm not sure that's quite true. You still need to spend them on tournaments to crystalise them into actual cash $. In principle this is the same as the tokens. The main difference is that we can spend the $t on those tournaments we most enjoy playing (or which are most profitable for us) rather than having to spend them on a certain buyin tourney ($26/$75).

So I generally agree with you but I think there are a number of variables which will ultimately determine the most profitable way of spending FTP. I think these are:

1. Rate at which we can ultimately crystalise FTP to $ cash per tourney (ROI);
2. Time cost/FTP spent ($/hr); and
3. Flexibility of tourney entry.

However, I think 3. is only important because of its affect on 1. and 2. above (i.e. we want to play those tournaments where the balance between $/hr and ROI is most favourable overall).

Cheers for reading...

Or as in my case #3 is the winner of the choice because of BRM.

I am playing the $1 super turbos and the FTPS are piling up fast.
But it would feel wrong playing a $26 sng with less than $200 BR.

Thanks for breaking that down anyways. It pretty much like you said comes
down to a matter of what makes you the most the fastest. Maybe I will use
my points on the 275ers and you use yours on the1800s untill my BR catches up,
and we can see how it works out?

BTW why is their only a tier one? I looked and didnt see a 2 or better.

Sound goods, 8979687, :- we can both keep a record and see how we get on.

And you're right - BRM is another important consideration!

If you didn't see the Tier 2 & 3 trnys it may have been because you had the freeroll/FTP filter on. The buyin for the Tier 2 & 3 trnys is tokens so you won't find them in the FTP section.

If it's not that then not sure...

I think with these you need to take in account the negative affect using FTP's has on your rakeback as well in your calculations

I think with these you need to take in account the negative affect using FTP's has on your rakeback as well in your calculations

Of course rakeback is a consideration, but I'm not sure it can help us decide which tournaments to enter with our FTP.

We lose r/back whenever we spend FTP on tournaments, but I don't think we lose more depending on the level of buyin.