[Closed] bottom set vs. flop check-raise from tag

If you are going to bet on the flop, I would fold to the raise. Villain would have to be pretty maniacal to raise with two pair or a draw, unless it's a really good draw which might be a coinflip or worse.

That being said I would probably check-call one bet on the flop and see what happens on the turn.

Double post, sorry

You put yourself in tough spot by donking flop. I'd prefer check/raise, fold to reraise (because it's aces 90% of the time). So I'd fold this in general, to reduce variance. Calling reraise is not an option, because only one outer can help you. Paired board usually means he has better boat, you COULD donk a club on turn, representing flush and hoping he does not have it, but I think he wouldn't fold his aces here.

Check/raising should be considered as best line here because:

- folding is too weak;
- donking this terrible flop with bottom set puts you in tough spot when you get raised OR called;
- check/raising will make the A***, KK** hands to fold. If he reraises - you're beat. If he calls - very interesting spot. You then can go broke on non-club turn, because he usually has a flushdraw here,but is afraid to get it in (depends on reads, of course). Occasionally you could run into nuts with nut redraw (AAK :club:* :club:), but anyway, it's rare occurance.

In my opinion - very possible to get away from it. Cheers.

I don't like the check/raise/fold line, you are turning your hand into a bluff there and it's a very expensive way of getting information.

if he is really a tag then donk/fold the flop is fine , if he is a typicall plo2 player then just lead this and get it in as you did here.

Originally posted by alejandrosh
I don't like the check/raise/fold line, you are turning your hand into a bluff there and it's a very expensive way of getting information.

if he is really a tag then donk/fold the flop is fine , if he is a typicall plo2 player then just lead this and get it in as you did here.

I agree with your comment on the check/raise/fold line, and the donk/fold line, but shoving in this spot!? PLO2 players are double terrible, sure, but you are never that much ahead and very often far far behind.

well, I don't think they fold AQ,A7,flushdraws. I don't know exactly which range but I doubt it's a range that has bottom set crushed.

The normal micro donk will never raise here with a bare flush draw. I think you are here against (AAxx, QQxx and sometimes against 2 pair most likley with a clubs draw). So against unknown PLO2 donk or a tight postflop player I can find fold. If the opponent is known as aggressiv you can get it in.

wow this forum is about as active as a stoned corpse

Thx for the feedback, I think I like donk/fold.

Check/Raise I dunno. He could just check behind a fd and we fold out the only hands we beat - a7/aq/ax. Seems lik we're asking for trouble.

Check/Call...I just don't see the point oop with a set. I mean what are we hoping for? Board to pair? We probly won't make any extra profit if it does. If the FD completes we could take a stab but we're oop and he could be betting his draw.

I like donk fold because we can keep worse hands in the pot, protect, and against a tag get away pretty cheap.

Cheers

PF aggressor checking behind a FD in PLO2? They do that?
And yes, c/r fold out the hands we beat - that's the plan, because we don't want to see turn card on such a drawy board with bottom set.

Anyway, I'm shocked here really You limp with such a nice hand, which is a sin already. Then you actually flop something and suggest to donk/fold? By checking, you let him c-bet his hopefully wide range of PFR (you have reads?), and take down that c-bet by raising, and folding to a reraise. How many times will he have AA** or QQ**? It also helps build your image. Become c/r maniac and opposition will play fit or fold against you, which will make your decisions easy. Of course, I could as always be giving too much credit for those players, but, um, yeah. Btw you don't have do raise pot ofc, 2/3 is enough, could be even smaller.

I'd like to hear a more in-depth analysis about why donk is better then check/raise here.

And one more thing: if you donk here, just forget about shoving. Never ever. Because if check/raising is "expensive", then shoving is just Sparta (= madness).

The normal micro donk will never raise here with a bare flush draw. I think you are here against (AAxx, QQxx and sometimes against 2 pair most likley with a clubs draw). So against unknown PLO2 donk or a tight postflop player I can find fold. If the opponent is known as aggressiv you can get it in.

don't know, haven't played played plo2 in a really long time. but It wouldn't shock me at all to see an unknown BU raising a bare AKxx here. even if his range is only top two and sets as stated in the original post, we still have decent equity since there are more combos of two pairs than oversets. probably not exactly the 46% equity pokertools say since it's more likely for him to have aces as the pfa. it can't be that low anyway.

And yes, c/r fold out the hands we beat - that's the plan, because we don't want to see turn card on such a drawy board with bottom set.

we don't want to see a turn here, I don't think he bets air here (see below why) , for obvious reasons seeing a free turn here is close to a disaster especially without the button. Also we could plan on check-raising the cbet with air, or with a backdoor draw ... that's not a bad idea as long as his betting range is big enough and folds often enough. but it looks pretty bad to turn a set into a bluff in this spot (the hand has too much value)

Anyway, I'm shocked here really fish p You limp with such a nice hand, which is a sin already. Then you actually flop something and suggest to donk/fold? By checking, you let him c-bet his hopefully wide range of PFR (you have reads?), and take down that c-bet by raising, and folding to a reraise. How many times will he have AA** or QQ**?

I don't think BU is betting a wide range, the board is pretty ugly to be betting air here especially with all the guys that will call him with any piece of the board (in the case he is a thinking player)

if he is not thinking , then he probably plays his cards only , so the board texture doesn't matter.

It also helps build your image. Become c/r maniac and opposition will play fit or fold against you, which will make your decisions easy.

this is plo2, image is not important at all.

I'd like to hear a more in-depth analysis about why donk is better then check/raise here.

Imo a donk achieves to deny getting a free card ( a disaster in this board texture ) , get value from hands that wouldn't bet here (some FDs, some Ax hands) , is cheaper if you wan't to fold your set to heavy action. so a donk protects better, gets more value and it's cheaper.

so imo donk/fold or donk/shove depending on oponent >> check/raise/call > check/call >> check/raise/fold >>>>>> check/fold

Imo a donk achieves to deny getting a free card ( a disaster in this board texture ) , get value from hands that wouldn't bet here (some FDs, some Ax hands) , is cheaper if you wan't to fold your set to heavy action. so a donk protects better, gets more value and it's cheaper.

Ok, I have to agree with you

I think what it boils down to in this hand is that you're either going to win a small pot or lose a big one. This is PLO, bottom set is garbage. I wouldn't hold onto it that tightly.

After all of the analysis I think donk/folding or check/calling is both viable. The problem with donk/folding is that if villain calls, you have to bet the turn and perhaps even the river, which sucks because you can be behind. I found that in PLO2 there are a lot of cards that can come on the turn that villain will check behind, if you check/call the flop. It's a stopping call. Then you can put in a small block bet on the river if villain checks the turn.

Yes, you generally don't want to give free cards in PLO, but it's hard to imagine a hand where villain will not c-bet after raising preflop in this spot. Besides, PLO2 players are call stations anyway.

I would be quick to fold to any raise because you are either behind or facing a bluff and I wouldn't play bluff catcher too much in PLO2.