[Closed] 40K GTD deep A7s vs small 3bet

since you are an unknown to him and that you openraised from the hijack I think he 3bets with a wide range here. like you said you block some of the hands that call your shove with your Ace and even against 88-KK you have like 33% which doesn't suck that much. I'd like a shove , show him that you can't be pushed around otherwise he will make your life hell since he has position.

Originally posted by alejandrosh
since you are an unknown to him and that you openraised from the hijack I think he 3bets with a wide range here. like you said you block some of the hands that call your shove with your Ace and even against 88-KK you have like 33% which doesn't suck that much. I'd like a shove , show him that you can't be pushed around otherwise he will make your life hell since he has position.

thats mine first thought too, fuck this bully, i'm itm->shove lets see who got bigger balls
BUT...
#1 ur unknown to him so what if he really have hand there and he is not folding (ur A is not blocking KK-QQ and with that kind of hand he will call with smile on his face, and there are 3 more pos. comb. for him to have AA and dozen mor for AK, AQ, so ur not blocking much there)??
#2 u got good stack
NOW with all that sayed i dont like shove that much
imo u can fold/just call and evaluate on turn/ or 4 bet to 40-46k and see what happens (u can actualy 4 bet to 40k and make a fold if he shoves couse if he is a good player he know that ur not folding that often in that spot if he shoves {looks like ur pot commited but u have 20 BB left which is ok} and that 4 bet look stronger than shove-> but bad news is that he can just cold call ur 4 bet ip and thats prety much sucks ♠_o: )
u dont got to prove in this spot who got bigger balls, u can let him take this 1

i ve been in the same spot recently it frankly it sucks. with my recent experiences i would shove there because of the reason alejandrosh said. if you don't , he'll keep doing it and you'll have to wait for a premium hand to make a stand if you don't push here. you will have to play tighter and lose a lot of blinds etc. To make it worse other people might be inclined to make the same play against you after seing your fold and you won't know if they are making a move or not.

reasons for shoving : you are expecting a move there from a good player because you just trippled up and he could assume that you will fold a lot of hands there.
You will probably have at least 33% chance to win & he can fold better hands. he may even fold AJ or pairs up to 88. So you have big fold equity bcuz you just tripled up you wouldn't risk everything now with hands like yours , probability to have the best hand, plus you make it clear that he shouldn't mess around with you, neither the rest of the table.

Originally posted by spit22
i ve been in the same spot recently it frankly it sucks. with my recent experiences i would shove there because of the reason alejandrosh said. if you don't , he'll keep doing it and you'll have to wait for a premium hand to make a stand if you don't push here. you will have to play tighter and lose a lot of blinds etc. To make it worse other people might be inclined to make the same play against you after seing your fold and you won't know if they are making a move or not.

reasons for shoving : you are expecting a move there from a good player because you just trippled up and he could assume that you will fold a lot of hands there.
You will probably have at least 33% chance to win & he can fold better hands. he may even fold AJ or pairs up to 88. So you have big fold equity bcuz you just tripled up you wouldn't risk everything now with hands like yours , probability to have the best hand, plus you make it clear that he shouldn't mess around with you, neither the rest of the table.

I agree with you guys! This move is for sure bigger variance play but in the long run it is +EV! After i folded which i hated pretty much i chanced gears! Before this tough table i was LAG with 20/18 or something stats but i understood that if i carry on like this i will be owned sooner or later. So what i did after this was to play really tight solid game even if i had 30BB stack or so...The guy busted like 2orbits later so he didn't had a chance to do more damage! ♠_biggrin: and i used my image very well later!

i dont agree , i dont think that shove in that spot is + ev
in reality he is unknown to u, as ur unknown to him so. i dont think that u got stack that u need to make those risky plays.
WHATS WRONG WITH JUST CALLING HIS 3BET??? U can flop a very big hand and duble up?etc. any way u'll get some info of the way he palys his hands.

and i can see that all of u are saying that u got a fold EQ... yes u got fold eq but vs which hands?? vs hands that dominates u lets say AT, AJ maybe AQ, vs small to medium pockets which is like 60/40 and vs to face card which is like 40/60
so what is ur goal with shove?? i can't get it? worse hand are not calling, he might call u with hands that u will got a coinflip like underdog (pockets).... so when he calls u r never ever a favorite to win

and BTW there is no shame in folding and there is nothing wrong with playing tight, u can use ur image very well to steal pots when action goes open raise/call/call or limp /raise etc

Originally posted by TheRebuz
i dont agree , i dont think that shove in that spot is + ev
in reality he is unknown to u, as ur unknown to him so. i dont think that u got stack that u need to make those risky plays.
WHATS WRONG WITH JUST CALLING HIS 3BET??? U can flop a very big hand and duble up?etc. any way u'll get some info of the way he palys his hands.

and i can see that all of u are saying that u got a fold EQ... yes u got fold eq but vs which hands?? vs hands that dominates u lets say AT, AJ maybe AQ, vs small to medium pockets which is like 60/40 and vs to face card which is like 40/60
so what is ur goal with shove?? i can't get it? worse hand are not calling, he might call u with hands that u will got a coinflip like underdog (pockets).... so when he calls u r never ever a favorite to win

and BTW there is no shame in folding and there is nothing wrong with playing tight, u can use ur image very well to steal pots when action goes open raise/call/call or limp /raise etc

i agree with what you say , but if you are folding all the time to a 3bet that turns our hand into almost a bluff.. why raise it in the first place. if you are gonna fold it then don't raise it in the first place! play tighter and wait to see what's up at the table. if you call OOP and you spike an A you are #$^@@! as you don't know what's up and if he is a lag with balls he can take it away from you with nothing.

so let's summarize , if you don't raise it from the beggining it's fine, if you do and the guy does that play he's either got a monster or making a move(if he doesn't have a mons he's folding anyway to a shove). mathematically the second one is more probable ,plus bah's instict was telling him the same thing.

edit: ah and the goal of shoving there is psychological

Well...his range there is so polarized! He has so much air and very few value 3betting hands so that's why it is +EV shove! I am not sure how he plays his big hands and other good ones. With hands like AT-AQ he is probably just calling and not turning it to a bluff. He might do the same with 88-JJ. But it depends really on the villain.
What about calling?
I thought for it too and it is not that bad because if i hit an A it is probably good. He has some Ax hands but most of it is suited connectors and some small pairs. I can also hit FD and some straight draws which i can play c/r and try to win it. But even if i hit A for example i will play it for a pot control and i won't stack him. He as well may put a lot of pressure on me since i don't know how crazy he is postflop. And there are big chance i don't improve and he will win it with pure aggression!
All in all very tough spot!

There is some leveling going on too and psychological battle!

P.S. He also insta raised which imo it is not hands like TT-AA, AT-AQ because he would take more time with them! He has a lot like KQs, 98s, Ax, 55 and etc. I might be wrong on this one! ♠_biggrin:

calling is awful, without position against a probably decent player and we have to stack off when we hit the ace.

true what when he calls we are not favorite but the point in shoving is taking the big pot out there, which is definetly +3EV imo.

i dont say that calling is best play, i just prefer calling, folding or 4 betting than shoving couse u leave u way out of that tricky spot and u can get away with very healty stack or even doble up if u hit a good flop.
why should i risk all mine stack with so marginal hand in that spot( risking 30bb+ more to win something like 7bb pot, no th) if i have something like 9Ts,JTs i maybe go with a shove but with A7s i dont think so (couse ur often dominated or practicly drawing dead to 3 outs)
why u should shove? u sit on the table triple up deep in MTT to 34bb, than u open raise from hijack and CO 3 bets u FOR THE FIRST TIME (who is unknown to u, u dont know nothing about his game) and u all are going shove!! shove!!!
why u r all scared to play oop??
and nope imo u dont want u to hit an A when u call u want to hit aces up, or str8 draw/ flush draw, 77x etc. and u win a nice big pot u dont need to stack him off (this is on line MTT and 30bb+ is prety big stack). And YES imo u can fold A7d (u dont need to lose whole stack with a pair of A with no kicker) when board cames something like AhTs9s or something like that.

and btw AGAIN THERE IS NO SHAME IN FOLDING, and about psihology -> maybe u should shove AK,AQ,99-QQ in that spot but would u usualy shove KK-AA in that spot????

nice hand to argue about.
lets see.
we have some points we should keep in mind here in this spot.

1. your stack
with 33BB or M~13 you dont have to do any fancy. your standing in the tournament is okay and you dont really have to risk all your stack with a marginal hand. but still your stack isnt that big so any big chipwin would do you very good. but for me your M is too good so your stacksize is a good argument for
---> folding

2. your image
you dont have any image yet because he is unknown and you are unknown. the first time i get threebet from an unknown guy i just give him credit. i dont know nothing about him yet but to risk all my stack here with a shitty hand i`d like to have some information about this player.
on the other side, same should be true for him, so if you shove all in here he should give you a real tight range and should fold alot of his 3bets.
but what if he is a tight player who would just 3bet you here with AQs+ 99+ ? is he able to fold that ?
if you fold know your image MIGHT get crushed because people see "ah he raise/folds, so lets 3bet him" but here you have a ~11$ buy in so people tend not to give a fuck about your image.
in a big buy in tournament this argument is good for a shove.
but in a 11$ tournament where people tend to play the cards and not image or position this is another argument
---> folding

3. your position
you raised from MP3 and got 3bet from CO.
so his 3betting range might be lose.
but its not co or BU vs one of the blinds. so we dont really know how much the position affects his choises.... but ok the positions are late so i think this is a argument for
----> shoving

so i guess that would be my ideas for the hand here. in a 50$ tournament shoving becomes better then folding because of the image. but in all low buy in mtts folding should be much better, since there is 1 out of 40 players who really cares about position and image and i would not put my life at risk here on the small chance that he is one of those.