[Closed] Nl100 Kk

i am betting that flop for value coz of many worse that are calling by such fish esp draws, cbeh turn, and depending on his afq on riv calling or folding such river. /mostly calling, unless he s ridiculously passive/

as played, depends on your image, but should be ok too, though u rly should protect on such flop esp if he s passive.

vs 70/20 i dont cbet.

i think we have more value delaying on turn and river + we have pos and get a lot of info by the river. if he donks turn and shoves river, i just fold. vs c/mr turn i call turn and decide river whether to call or not. depends a lot on image/flow/timing/betsize.

i like as u played it. your coach plays it the same. nh!

@ tln: i dont agree. "protect"? against what? 2 outs? its a big 3bet(squeezed) pot. we have the nut bd fd. there is no card on the turn we mind seeing. there might be some action killers for TT, thats true ... but since there is already an A on the board, we already have an action killer ....

I'd also check back the flop. Two streets of value is the absolute maximum we will get from any non-Ax hand so we can as well give him the opportunity to bluff.

hey finally som row:

okay: here we go: @ Bierbaer: ofc we dont have more than 2 streets of value coz of the pot/stack ratio but its important to know which streets to bet.

what is my take is this: he has a gazillion of underpairs/ 67,56,57,78, fd, ..w/e u get the point.. the handcombos he is calling the flop with as worse is much higher than his Ax /we esp get this confirmed on turn when another A spikes/

the problem with not betting flop is: a, vs plr who plays close to 100% we srsly run the risk of him hitting his 2p/ flush/ gutshot/ oesd b, if he is at least somewhat agressive our playability after flop decreases a ton---> if the turn wasnt an A, do u call 1 bet and fold to river right?-- he can srsly bluff u out so easily, i imagine since he actually raises 20% pf that he is not one of those pure loose passive calling stations.

Also: if we bet flop, chbeh turn, /also this card, but A is rly good for us.. lets say it was anything smaller/ and bet river again, we are getting value still buy his semistrong made hands who dont believe. On contrary, to a fish, if u cbeh flop on A high and then are crazy barelling suddenly it screams for u have Ax so much more and i cant rly imagine him calling down as light as he would if u make a standard cbet (fish dont respect cbets at all, right?) and then seemingly give up on turn.

cheers

Originally posted by Bierbaer
I'd also check back the flop. Two streets of value is the absolute maximum we will get from any non-Ax hand so we can as well give him the opportunity to bluff.

---> i think this is a pretty illogical, sorry.. u re saying u want to bluffcatch with KK on Ax all time? would u be happy if he bets turn and both river to bluffcatch? esp if turn wasnt Ax.. me not.

U open to much more bluffs if u cbet and cbeh turn and calldown river.

interesting spot because this situation happens so often.
and here are my thoughts.

on the flop we have two choices bet or cb

if we bet, we might get some value from QQ, JJ and if he c/r this board i tend to fold
if we cb andtreat this spot as wa/wb we have the advantage to see another card for free and the action he takes on the turn. but we give him the chance to bluff on us, which is not too bad here.

my line would be here:

bet/fold flop against passive players
cb against agressive opponents (which will not call too much with weaker hands, but will bet the turn alot if we cb)

so i dont think there is ONE real solution to this spot, it depends so hard on his AF and his c/r ratio on the flop

if i cb the flop im defentily calling one bet on the turn if a blank hits, and if an ace hits i would still call with much more confidence.

if he fires the river again im folding only against very passive oppents like <1.3 on the river and calling to the rest of the players.

as played i bet the turn AND river to get value from JJ QQ

Originally posted by TheLastNail

Originally posted by Bierbaer
I'd also check back the flop. Two streets of value is the absolute maximum we will get from any non-Ax hand so we can as well give him the opportunity to bluff.

---> i think this is a pretty illogical, sorry.. u re saying u want to bluffcatch with KK on Ax all time? would u be happy if he bets turn and both river to bluffcatch? esp if turn wasnt Ax.. me not.

U open to much more bluffs if u cbet and cbeh turn and calldown river.

Why is it illogical? We can make two asumptions:
a) He is most likely calling at least one street if he has some kind of SD-value whether we start betting on the flop or on the turn (the only exception would be when a superscary card like K or Q hits).
b) He is most likely check/folding with his total air hands on the flop because the A hits our 3betting range so hard.

Even if he has a FD we're IP with the nut redraw, I'd be a bit more inclined to bet KK w/o spade because then 1/4 of the deck would give us trouble if we check back and he starts betting.

illogical is to me saying: we give him opportuninty to bluff when we cbeh F. Superficially meant its true, but 1, u re not happy calling down 2x with underpair
2, if he bluffs in these spots, he will moreso bluff if we bet F, cbeh T and catch his bluff on R --> this is more of an "inducing line" vs plr who plays sooo many hands coz he hits this board with any sort of pair, bcdoors or w/e

however my biggest point for betting F is just pure value vs all his garbage that might hit surprise 2 pair, gutters etc by T

Originally posted by TheLastNail
illogical is to me saying: we give him opportuninty to bluff when we cbeh F. Superficially meant its true, but 1, u re not happy calling down 2x with underpair

Yes I'm not happy about it. But if I bet the flop and he check/calls, what's my line on the turn?
I can't bet again, so I check back.
On the river if he bets - am I happy now?

Originally posted by TheLastNail
2, if he bluffs in these spots, he will moreso bluff if we bet F, cbeh T and catch his bluff on R --> this is more of an "inducing line" vs plr who plays sooo many hands coz he hits this board with any sort of pair, bcdoors or w/e

I don't agree with that. He played 70/20, you're saying he is more likely to
a) either turn some kind of medium pair into a bluff after we bet the flop and checked back the turn AND/OR
b) check/call total air on the flop and then bluff with it than betting his total air if we check back the flop.

I mean he could certainly do that now and then but overall his air range is obv a lot wider if we check back the flop.
And if we bet and check back the turn to catch a riverbet we invested the same amount of money but the part of his range that beats us makes up a larger part of his overall-range than if we bet the flop - we fold out most of his air in this case.

Originally posted by TheLastNail
however my biggest point for betting F is just pure value vs all his garbage that might hit surprise 2 pair, gutters etc by T

This might be true on a A97 board, but there aren't as many hands that can hit a 2pair on the A-6 high board.
There are certainly some in his range, but imo he is much more likely to fold hands like 64s than J9s preflop and therefore the part of his range that could possibly hit non-Ax-2pairs is relatively small on this board.