When we flop a flush draw, why do we assume that we have 9 outs? On a full table it's very much probable that some of our outs are dead - given out as the other players' hands. We play for the long run, so shouldn't we assume that about 25% of the cards given out belong to the suite we require?
of course this applies to all other draws
I know I'm a mere bronze so I shouldn't speak out of rank...
But is what you're alluding to not what comes under "discounted outs"? It's in the Bronze SSS article on odds and outs. I've struggled to get my head fully around it but as I've just started today on that topic...
Hi Matel
No they are not the discounted out. They you count your outs you count the cards that could make your draw. so if you have a Flush draw for example you have 9 outs. It doesn't matter what the cards of the others are because they are unknown.
So let's say the Flop has come and you have a FD, so there are 5 cards that you know so that's 9 outs and there are still 47 unknown cards (you know only your 2 cards and the 3 community cards)
Discounted outs are the cards that complete your draw but do not give you the best hand. so for example you have an OESD (8 outs) but there is also a possible Flush draw and it is quite likely given your reads that villain could have it. You have to discount 2 outs because they do not give you the best hand. so that leaves you with 6 outs.
I hope it makes things a bit clearer
Regards
Thazar
If you discount the cards our opponents may hold that are of the desired suit you have to also discount the cards our opponents may hold that are of a different suit so it works out the same anyway. But that's a pretty illogical way to approach it as in fact you have no idea what they hold. 
Originally posted by fryandspicy
If you discount the cards our opponents may hold that are of the desired suit you have to also discount the cards our opponents may hold that are of a different suit so it works out the same anyway. But that's a pretty illogical way to approach it as in fact you have no idea what they hold.
My thoughts exactly... the only time you get to see their hands without folding is when you're all in, which by then it'll be too late to get out of the hand.
