KQ vs maniac!!

Hello,

I think that going broke with KQo is kind of nuts.
If he 3bets so much and is aggressive postflop I think we can just call here, even though we are OOP and play the hand postflop.

Best,
Plamen

Originally posted by kymupa
Hello,

I think that going broke with KQo is kind of nuts.
If he 3bets so much and is aggressive postflop I think we can just call here, even though we are OOP and play the hand postflop.

Best,
Plamen

1) Why is it nuts? Even in HU against very agressive opponents it's pretty standard, and this guy is WAY-WAY-WAY too LaG.

2) We plan to stack off with TP postflop, and fold the rest? I mean, I thought we shouldnt NOT call 3bets OOP.

Hi imimba1,

1) you must be kidding that never ever happens in HU. People will almost always flat KQ here vs a 3bet. There's really no point in 4betting. Yes, people 4bet AQ, but that's because others may jam AJ AT AXs KQ sometimes, which are hands that AQ dominates. AQ is the 2nd nut no pair hand.

With KQ, if people jam AX you are never a favourite. You need your opponent to not only jam all worse KX hands, but also some QX hands like QJ QT Q9. If not, it just makes 0 sense to 4betting when you can't really go for value from too many worse hands.

And if he's jamming QX, his 5betting range must be something like 20% which is almost impossible. Thus, calling is way better to keep all those worse hands in instead of chasing them away with a 4bet.

And basically, if you are 4betting KQ as a value hand, it would mean that you are 4bet bluffing a ton and he is adapting to this by 5bet jamming really wide (and thus you would need some balance for your bluff hands with a wider range of value hands). That never even happens at higher limits where the games are really aggro preflop and this probably never happens at lower limits too (unless you are against a complete ape shit maniac fish).

I think you are just overthinking this spot. Call the 3bet if his range is really wide and you think you can make a profit by calling. If not just 4bet as a bluff and fold, or even just fold right away.

If his 3bet % is really 50% over a large sample, i might agree with your play. But we have only 70 hands, so forget it.

Originally posted by mbml
Hi imimba1,

1) you must be kidding that never ever happens in HU. People will almost always flat KQ here vs a 3bet. There's really no point in 4betting. Yes, people 4bet AQ, but that's because others may jam AJ AT AXs KQ sometimes, which are hands that AQ dominates. AQ is the 2nd nut no pair hand.

With KQ, if people jam AX you are never a favourite. You need your opponent to not only jam all worse KX hands, but also some QX hands like QJ QT Q9. If not, it just makes 0 sense to 4betting when you can't really go for value from too many worse hands.

And if he's jamming QX, his 5betting range must be something like 20% which is almost impossible. Thus, calling is way better to keep all those worse hands in instead of chasing them away with a 4bet.

And basically, if you are 4betting KQ as a value hand, it would mean that you are 4bet bluffing a ton and he is adapting to this by 5bet jamming really wide (and thus you would need some balance for your bluff hands with a wider range of value hands). That never even happens at higher limits where the games are really aggro preflop and this probably never happens at lower limits too (unless you are against a complete ape shit maniac fish).

I think you are just overthinking this spot. Call the 3bet if his range is really wide and you think you can make a profit by calling. If not just 4bet as a bluff and fold, or even just fold right away.

If his 3bet % is really 50% over a large sample, i might agree with your play. But we have only 70 hands, so forget it.

PURE GOLD

nice

Usefull explanation, thanks.

I think beside his 3bet%, for your 4bet bluff with KQ it is more important to see how much he is folding to 4bet. Some maniacs 3bet a lot, but they are not complete idiots, they are not going to call 4bet with weak hand. So if he folds to 4bet more than 70% you can 4bet bluff profitable.
I like more to 4bet bluff, than to call OOP, because I mostly dont hit with KQ, and if I hit, he sometimes hit set, 2 pair, or any better hand, so it depends how much he barrels as bluff.

Originally posted by mlatasrb
Usefull explanation, thanks.

I think beside his 3bet%, for your 4bet bluff with KQ it is more important to see how much he is folding to 4bet. Some maniacs 3bet a lot, but they are not complete idiots, they are not going to call 4bet with weak hand. So if he folds to 4bet more than 70% you can 4bet bluff profitable.
I like more to 4bet bluff, than to call OOP, because I mostly dont hit with KQ, and if I hit, he sometimes hit set, 2 pair, or any better hand, so it depends how much he barrels as bluff.

+1 also

Originally posted by kymupa
Hello,

I think that going broke with KQo is kind of nuts.
If he 3bets so much and is aggressive postflop I think we can just call here, even though we are OOP and play the hand postflop.

Best,
Plamen

+1

Originally posted by mlatasrb
I think beside his 3bet%, for your 4bet bluff with KQ it is more important to see how much he is folding to 4bet. Some maniacs 3bet a lot, but they are not complete idiots, they are not going to call 4bet with weak hand. So if he folds to 4bet more than 70% you can 4bet bluff profitable.

Don't look at how much he's folding to 4bets with 70 hands We can't even trust his 3bet stat, not to mention 4bet.

@mbml, thank you, it's awesome

I think we can't totally rely on it, but we can consider it when making our decision. For example if in 74 hands, he 3bets 50% of time as he did, and 5/5 times folded to 4bet, then I would 4bet him. Of course it is better to have statistics folded 800/1000 times, but 5/5 times is also nice hint (better than no info).

Also you can't rely on 800/1000 statistics, because people change their style of play over time.

Great analysis.

hehe you're reading some super old threads

I miss @imimba1. Epic judge bashing.

Why the retro post? Is this the ghost of the great man/woman?

ya.:) I just joined,so..;d