[SH] NL50 KK 4bet pot

Hello pcfmcc02,

Nah, betting smaller is still fine to get called loose by him. Though I'd really ask if I have much by the river vs his shove. ♦ He clearly ain't bluffing this way and seems that just wants to avoid you checking behind.

Best Regards.

Originally posted by veriz
He clearly ain't bluffing this way and seems that just wants to avoid you checking behind.

Would you think about folding river? Is it possible to find the fold button at all?

Originally posted by pcfmcc02

Originally posted by veriz
He clearly ain't bluffing this way and seems that just wants to avoid you checking behind.

Would you think about folding river? Is it possible to find the fold button at all?

Well, what do we have beat? ♦

Originally posted by veriz

Originally posted by pcfmcc02

Originally posted by veriz
He clearly ain't bluffing this way and seems that just wants to avoid you checking behind.

Would you think about folding river? Is it possible to find the fold button at all?

Well, what do we have beat? ♦

Not much, mainly QQ... But I only have to be good ~20% of the time...

Asztal: T♥T♣8♦ 4♠ 9♣
       Részesedés   Nyert  Osztozás
BU         29.55%  27.27%     2.27% { KdKh }
BB         70.45%  68.18%     2.27% { QQ+, TT-88, ATs }

But are you ever good?

Originally posted by w1z4rd
But are you ever good?

Calling river is unexploitable, folding is. Therefore, to fold you need to be extremely sure he has you beat more than the odds you get.

LE: And if you fold KK you probably never call here which means you bleed money.

Not much, mainly QQ... But I only have to be good ~20% of the time...

You didn't take into account the combos as JTs/QTs/KTs which are the same way in his calling range as ATs. Sometimes if he is bad enough might even call with ATo cause clearly your 4betting range is super-weak with making such a size. Aka he is able to overplay you very easily.

QQ gets it in preflop, so you can already discount QQ outs, so he never-ever has here 100% QQ range which makes the equity even worse. Conclusion we don't get the equity and I doubt that we are ever good.

Calling river is unexploitable, folding is. Therefore, to fold you need to be extremely sure he has you beat more than the odds you get.

1) Don't see how you can ever exploit me if I fold the river cause clearly I could even double-barrel there with something like AK cause I assume you folding a lot of PPs.

2) It's anon. tables, good luck exploiting people there cause clearly you will never have enough of information for that.

3) NL50 and exploiting, I doubt so that you will find many players who ever exploit this kind of river Fold or Call.

LE: And if you fold KK you probably never call here which means you bleed money.

How I am bleeding money if I fold here if I make a fold? I don't invest anything into the pot, aka it's neutral EV for us. By folding you don't lose money. Nor if I don't expect to be ahead here why would I need to call?

Originally posted by veriz

LE: And if you fold KK you probably never call here which means you bleed money.

How I am bleeding money if I fold here if I make a fold? I don't invest anything into the pot, aka it's neutral EV for us. By folding you don't lose money. Nor if I don't expect to be ahead here why would I need to call?

All of the money you put in preflop, flop and turn is dead if you fold to this action with the best hand in your range.

Originally posted by EmanuelC16

Originally posted by veriz

LE: And if you fold KK you probably never call here which means you bleed money.

How I am bleeding money if I fold here if I make a fold? I don't invest anything into the pot, aka it's neutral EV for us. By folding you don't lose money. Nor if I don't expect to be ahead here why would I need to call?

All of the money you put in preflop, flop and turn is dead if you fold to this action with the best hand in your range.

Which is calculated as we need ~22% equity for break-even call which we don't get.

And I was really eager to hear about "exploiting", please tell me how you exploiting me if I fold this river.

Originally posted by veriz

Originally posted by EmanuelC16

Originally posted by veriz

LE: And if you fold KK you probably never call here which means you bleed money.

How I am bleeding money if I fold here if I make a fold? I don't invest anything into the pot, aka it's neutral EV for us. By folding you don't lose money. Nor if I don't expect to be ahead here why would I need to call?

All of the money you put in preflop, flop and turn is dead if you fold to this action with the best hand in your range.

Which is calculated as we need ~22% equity for break-even call which we don't get.

And I was really eager to hear about "exploiting", please tell me how you exploiting me if I fold this river.

You fold 100% of the hands you get to the river this way so it's not so hard to tell, is it? Donk 100% of the hands I get to the river with, meaning I win the pot about just about any time you don't flop a set, regardless of my hand.

Originally posted by EmanuelC16

Originally posted by veriz

Originally posted by EmanuelC16

Originally posted by veriz

LE: And if you fold KK you probably never call here which means you bleed money.

How I am bleeding money if I fold here if I make a fold? I don't invest anything into the pot, aka it's neutral EV for us. By folding you don't lose money. Nor if I don't expect to be ahead here why would I need to call?

All of the money you put in preflop, flop and turn is dead if you fold to this action with the best hand in your range.

Which is calculated as we need ~22% equity for break-even call which we don't get.

And I was really eager to hear about "exploiting", please tell me how you exploiting me if I fold this river.

You fold 100% of the hands you get to the river this way so it's not so hard to tell, is it? Donk 100% of the hands I get to the river with, meaning I win the pot about just about any time you don't flop a set, regardless of my hand.

Funny but I cant' really even comment that part cause clearly you ain't thinking at all. Why would I ever fold 100% on the river? Plus if you start to exploit me I start to adjust vs you, so clear is it? Poker isn't only about exploiting but also about correct adjustments.

Plus quite obvious that I am pretty sure that you would never start bluffing this way in 4bet pots, I'd say even NEVER-EVER! Nor floating in those spots. Hopefully you really misread somehow the hand...

What's your calling range on the river if you don't fold 100%?

Originally posted by EmanuelC16
What's your calling range on the river if you don't fold 100%?

That should be that difficult to figure out, shouldn't it? Clearly we know we need ~22% to be ahead in those causes to achieve it @ break-even point. So what kind of hands would get it?

Originally posted by veriz

Originally posted by EmanuelC16
What's your calling range on the river if you don't fold 100%?

That should be that difficult to figure out, shouldn't it? Clearly we know we need ~22% to be ahead in those causes to achieve it @ break-even point. So what kind of hands would get it?

You tell me. I've been answering your questions quite clearly and all you do is ask rhetorical questions. Go ahead and answer this one don't ask the same thing.

Originally posted by EmanuelC16

Originally posted by veriz

Originally posted by EmanuelC16
What's your calling range on the river if you don't fold 100%?

That should be that difficult to figure out, shouldn't it? Clearly we know we need ~22% to be ahead in those causes to achieve it @ break-even point. So what kind of hands would get it?

You tell me. I've been answering your questions quite clearly and all you do is ask rhetorical questions. Go ahead and answer this one don't ask the same thing.

Dependent how I see the villain and what kind of dynamics I had with him I start to call-down looser/tighter. Clearly here we can easily call-down with AA cause he may also play his KK that way, aka we are getting the equity.

Originally posted by veriz

Originally posted by EmanuelC16

Originally posted by veriz

Originally posted by EmanuelC16
What's your calling range on the river if you don't fold 100%?

That should be that difficult to figure out, shouldn't it? Clearly we know we need ~22% to be ahead in those causes to achieve it @ break-even point. So what kind of hands would get it?

You tell me. I've been answering your questions quite clearly and all you do is ask rhetorical questions. Go ahead and answer this one don't ask the same thing.

Dependent how I see the villain and what kind of dynamics I had with him I start to call-down looser/tighter. Clearly here we can easily call-down with AA cause he may also play his KK that way, aka we are getting the equity.

QQ gets it in preflop but KK doesn't.. why?

Originally posted by EmanuelC16

Originally posted by veriz

Originally posted by EmanuelC16

Originally posted by veriz

Originally posted by EmanuelC16
What's your calling range on the river if you don't fold 100%?

That should be that difficult to figure out, shouldn't it? Clearly we know we need ~22% to be ahead in those causes to achieve it @ break-even point. So what kind of hands would get it?

You tell me. I've been answering your questions quite clearly and all you do is ask rhetorical questions. Go ahead and answer this one don't ask the same thing.

Dependent how I see the villain and what kind of dynamics I had with him I start to call-down looser/tighter. Clearly here we can easily call-down with AA cause he may also play his KK that way, aka we are getting the equity.

QQ gets it in preflop but KK doesn't.. why?

Not that difficult to understand cause clearly he has also a trapping range which plays that way cause of our weak 4bet-size.

He has a trapping range but he never has a worse hand than KK on the river..

Why is one clearer than the other?

Originally posted by EmanuelC16
He has a trapping range but he never has a worse hand than KK on the river..

Why is one clearer than the other?

C'mon really? Read above what is said there about him having how big part of QQ range. I never said he is never-ever going to have it, just that he will not come out with them often enough.

Shouldn't be that difficult to understand as well that people tend to get it in with QQ rather than with KK/AA. Don't they? QQ is really vulnerable and gets more value from AK, doesn't it? Think a bit mate and wouldn't even have such questions.