K875ss bvb vs reg.

Seems like you defend really wide pre even against competent players. They shouldnt open really wide from sb though..

Turn is there a reason why would you consider xback? Easy bet, you can have best hand, can call xraise easily and want to build pot.

Originally posted by SeagalSteven
Seems like you defend really wide pre even against competent players. They shouldnt open really wide from sb though..

Turn is there a reason why would you consider xback? Easy bet, you can have best hand, can call xraise easily and want to build pot.

how does your turn checking range look like? What better hand folds the turn? What worse hand calls the turn?

Checking Qx, weaker draws, bottom 2 with weak sidecards. Could even check this hand if we had only OESD/gutter, but with wrap this is just too strong for xback. Unless you stab nothing but nuts.

Probably no better hand folds turn, but we can easily give pressure otr if we miss against better Kx, AA.

Opp can call with draws that dont have us beat, like pair + FD/SD. Or then he can fold it - something like QJT without FD which isnt bad result either with 35%ish eq.

Originally posted by SeagalSteven
Checking Qx, weaker draws, bottom 2 with weak sidecards. Could even check this hand if we had only OESD/gutter, but with wrap this is just too strong for xback. Unless you stab nothing but nuts.

It's not like we never have any bluffs unless we bet this... What do you think hero's line is with A875/J875/T875 etc?

Probably no better hand folds turn, but we can easily give pressure otr if we miss against better Kx, AA.

Opp can call with draws that dont have us beat, like pair + FD/SD. Or then he can fold it - something like QJT without FD which isnt bad result either with 35%ish eq.

Can you name a combo of pair+fd/sd that prefers to check this turn over betting? I just have hard time seeing combos where that's true and we have the best hand.

Why would you bet QJT as villain? Just to keep iniative? You think it's too weak and should be played as bluff? Will you bluff any river not making straight / 2prs?

Originally posted by SeagalSteven
Why would you bet QJT as villain? Just to keep iniative? You think it's too weak and should be played as bluff? Will you bluff any river not making straight / 2prs?

Why would you bet the flop?

It's not really a great turn bet, i agree.

Originally posted by Shevtshenko

Why would you bet the flop?

^^ On the flop we play vs villain's entire preflop calling (but not 3betting) range. Against that range I think we can bet most top pair on this dryish flop for value (around 1/2 pot ). Once we get called, however, we are now playing against villain's pre and flop calling range which is going to be stronger. If we again try to bet most of our top pair it starts to get too thin.

Originally posted by Tim64

Originally posted by Shevtshenko

Why would you bet the flop?

^^ On the flop we play vs villain's entire preflop calling (but not 3betting) range. Against that range I think we can bet most top pair on this dryish flop for value (around 1/2 pot ). Once we get called, however, we are now playing against villain's pre and flop calling range which is going to be stronger. If we again try to bet most of our top pair it starts to get too thin.

So betting QJT starts to look good vs that range on K?

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I think we all agree that, in SB's shoes, QJT probably isn't a good turn bet on Q♥:6♣:4♠:K♥: However, the question I was answering was your one about whether to even bet the flop Q♥:6♣:4♠: with QJT. And I was arguing that it's reasonable to do so.

I think you wanted a combo that SB bets flop with, checks this turn with, and which hero (with a K and draws) now beats. I think QTJ is a good example of that.

So that's the range we're targeting with our turn bet. QJT, everything else that calls has K8 beat.

What hands got you beat? Can you maybe barrell them of otr some cards, or get value if hitting? Do we want to give free card if villain has any Qxxx that has not 2prs?

Originally posted by Shevtshenko
So that's the range we're targeting with our turn bet. QJT, everything else that calls has K8 beat.

I gave you one example of a hand that might play this way - because you specifically asked for one. Clearly I'm not presenting you his entire x/c range.

Originally posted by Tim64

Originally posted by Shevtshenko
So that's the range we're targeting with our turn bet. QJT, everything else that calls has K8 beat.

I gave you one example of a hand that might play this way - because you specifically asked for one. Clearly I'm not presenting you his entire x/c range.

We talked about this before and it's not like we found an abundance of hands that we can get value from ott. We're almost always behind when we get called ott.

Originally posted by Shevtshenko

Originally posted by Tim64

Originally posted by Shevtshenko
So that's the range we're targeting with our turn bet. QJT, everything else that calls has K8 beat.

I gave you one example of a hand that might play this way - because you specifically asked for one. Clearly I'm not presenting you his entire x/c range.

We talked about this before and it's not like we found an abundance of hands that we can get value from ott. We're almost always behind when we get called ott.

I actually think that's probably fair. When we get called we're often slightly behind. (Though I do think hands like QT57, QTJ*, AA**, AhQsJh* can all play this way from as SB, and are not x/folding turn - hands we are ahead of). However, 1. when we get folds we deny equity (it's not like our hand is invulnerable) and 2. when we get called we'll often improve on the river to a hand we can value bet against hands we've overtaken - for instance we've just over 50% eq even against Q6, and only 45% underdog vs KQ (not that we'd expect KQ to take this line).

Originally posted by Tim64

Originally posted by Shevtshenko

Originally posted by Tim64

Originally posted by Shevtshenko
So that's the range we're targeting with our turn bet. QJT, everything else that calls has K8 beat.

I gave you one example of a hand that might play this way - because you specifically asked for one. Clearly I'm not presenting you his entire x/c range.

We talked about this before and it's not like we found an abundance of hands that we can get value from ott. We're almost always behind when we get called ott.

I actually think that's probably fair. When we get called we're often slightly behind. (Though I do think hands like QT57, QTJ*, AA**, AhQsJh* can all play this way from as SB, and are not x/folding turn - hands we are ahead of). However, 1. when we get folds we deny equity (it's not like our hand is invulnerable) and 2. when we get called we'll often improve on the river to a hand we can value bet against hands we've overtaken - for instance we've just over 50% eq even against Q6, and only 45% underdog vs KQ (not that we'd expect KQ to take this line).

Yea, i agree with most of this. The second numbered point i don't really agree with as much. Since the times we hit the flush, we have less value (as a percentage of the pot, maybe even in total) if we bet the turn compared to the times we check. Also, even if we hit trips, we can't really feel great about betting river. There are no 2pair outs (all those make us a straight). Also, we deny our opponent a chance to bluff rivers with hands he's c/fing or bet/call rivers with weaker hands when we hit straights.

So imo, not a super simple either way. I still like checking. That said, it's a super close spot so don't really mind either way, since the ev has to be really close either way. I just think ev of checking is likely higher than ev of betting. We look really weak after checking turn, so even weaker villains can find bluffs on quite a few rivers.

That all said, if you're convinced that sb is too straightforward - not c/ring enough (as bluffs or for value) and not bluffing rivers, then the ev of betting goes up and may end up being better.

I don't agree that when we check we look weak on most rivers. We call the flop and decide not to bet the turn. Often that caps our range from both ends. We don't have really strong hand and we don't have really weak hands. That creates some interesting spots on pairing rivers as neither player has that many boats in their range. But any other card pretty much completes a flush or a straight. When we check, it's harder to get any value from opponents bluffs or make a bluff catch with K when straight completes.

It's a situation where both players are quite capped and 75% of rivers change the board as a draw completes. It's not a spot where there will be a lot of bluffs from SB as he most of the times has some showdown value (if he didn't have any, that turn is pretty decent card to barrell).

If villain has some Qxxx hand, he has over 30% equity vs. hero. I wouldn't like to give him a free river here.

Thanks for the input, Kyyberi. Interesting hand.