Call or fold?

When passive villain starts betting he usually has something. Even if the bet sizes are very small I think it would be better to fold at least OTT. As played we can't call river vs passive villain.

Originally posted by la55i
When passive villain starts betting he usually has something. Even if the bet sizes are very small I think it would be better to fold at least OTT. As played we can't call river vs passive villain.

On the flop, if it's checked to him or if he's first to act, he bets, usually around the minimum so, for me, his bets don't mean much. He could have something or nothing. Hard to tell.

Originally posted by LeliannaLee

Originally posted by la55i
When passive villain starts betting he usually has something. Even if the bet sizes are very small I think it would be better to fold at least OTT. As played we can't call river vs passive villain.

On the flop, if it's checked to him or if he's first to act, he bets, usually around the minimum so, for me, his bets don't mean much. He could have something or nothing. Hard to tell.

You might be right. My experience is mainly from cash game but I have recently got interested in tournaments. In cash games when fish minbets he usually has something. Any pair or strong broadways like AQ. Flop call is fine but OTT 4x, Kx, higher pocket pairs and straights are possible. We don't have many outs and not all of them are clear, so should we fold OTT? Maybe, maybe not, but river is a fold?

I thought about the hand for a while and burned off a fair bit of my timebank. The longer I thought about it, the more his river shove smelled of air and I eventually called.

Well, you had some kind of read and followed your instinct. Now you can take a note and exploit him later too
Calling is not bad if you feel you have a read on that player and you think he is capable of bluffing like this.
Vs unknown or very passive guys fold would be correct quite often. It is nice that you won this one

I wouldn’t play the hand in the first place. It’s his first raise pre-flop and even with this kind of odds in a multi way pot I would fold right away against his UTG+1 raise.

Cheers,
SDK1987

That was a good point. Suited one gapper is not the best hand out there and we have less than 20bb.

Originally posted by SDK1987
I wouldn’t play the hand in the first place. It’s his first raise pre-flop and even with this kind of odds in a multi way pot I would fold right away against his UTG+1 raise.

Cheers,
SDK1987

First of all, with reference to the bold part of your post (my bold), it wasn't his raise. It was UTG+1 who raised, Villain was UTG+2. If it had been Villain's raise I would have folded instantly as he'd limped every pot he'd played up to then.

Anyway, to continue, pot is $2223, three players already in, just the BB to act after me and I'm getting odds of almost 5/1. I'm calling. I know I'm not in a great position with 19bb but I can't sit and wait for premium hands all day and I'm not going to shove 86s into a three way pot after a UTG+1 raise. I want to see a flop and hopefully win a nice pot. If I were going to fold anywhere it would have been on the flop but his small bet stunk of two overcards which is why I continued. With two overs and no high cards coming on the run out, I expected him to go bet, bet, check; plus there was always a chance I could hit two pairs, trips or runner runner straight with the last two cards (I did turn a gutshot). His shove on the river is what threw me as I expected to check back and win with a pair to his overs.

I'm not saying your advice there is wrong, just telling you how my brain was working at the time. Thanks for the input, I really do take note of what everyone says and will always bring it to mind when in similar situations.

This would be a lot better in cash game where you can just fill your bankroll back to 100. Here every BB counts. 68s is really not that good hand. You hit very rarely. If you hit only FD, it might get expensive and your flush might not be the best. Full houses can beat your trips. If you hit 6 or 8 they are not so good.

We are playing 4way. Lets say villains have some low Ax, broadways, suited connectors and pocket pairs. You don't have so much equity there.
You call and hope to hit very very hard. That could be correct in the long run in cash games but I don't know if this is the spot to do it when our tournament life is on a risk.

I totally understand why you wanted to call this BTW: we have 2% chance to hit 2 pair on the flop. Do you want to spend that 1bb and find out if we are lucky?

Originally posted by la55i
I totally understand why you wanted to call this BTW: we have 2% chance to hit 2 pair on the flop. Do you want to spend that 1bb and find out if we are lucky?

Yeah, 1 in 48 if I'm not mistaken. However, I was referring to hitting 2 pair/trips after having hit one pair on the flop.

I actually agree with what you're saying, it's just that I couldn't resist the 5/1 odds (almost) pre flop. If I'd whiffed on the flop totally I would have mucked. TBH, if he had bet half-pot upwards I would also have mucked it. It was just one of those situations where my gut was overruling my brain. I watched one of Negreanu's vids about this where he said that every so often you get the urge to do what is the opposite to what you should be doing. He said that it's your subconscious that's talking to you and there are times you have to go with it. I've only been playing just over a month and this is the first time I've had that gut feeling so strong. I guess that might sound daft but I really did have a strong gut feeling about what he had which is why I acted like I did.

Maybe I should stop watching so many vids.

Thanks for the advice, it is greatly appreciated

Originally posted by LeliannaLee

Originally posted by la55i
I totally understand why you wanted to call this BTW: we have 2% chance to hit 2 pair on the flop. Do you want to spend that 1bb and find out if we are lucky?

Yeah, 1 in 48 if I'm not mistaken. However, I was referring to hitting 2 pair/trips after having hit one pair on the flop.

I actually agree with what you're saying, it's just that I couldn't resist the 5/1 odds (almost) pre flop. If I'd whiffed on the flop totally I would have mucked. TBH, if he had bet half-pot upwards I would also have mucked it. It was just one of those situations where my gut was overruling my brain. I watched one of Negreanu's vids about this where he said that every so often you get the urge to do what is the opposite to what you should be doing. He said that it's your subconscious that's talking to you and there are times you have to go with it. I've only been playing just over a month and this is the first time I've had that gut feeling so strong. I guess that might sound daft but I really did have a strong gut feeling about what he had which is why I acted like I did.

Maybe I should stop watching so many vids.

Thanks for the advice, it is greatly appreciated

Yea but he develope this gut over thousands and thousands of hands. You forget that you are in multiway pot where 2nd pair is almost never good enough. Especially where UTG raise and UTG call. He might not have Kx, but he can have 77-QQ and play like that. Also he can have A6and play like that.
As SDK say you shuldn't play it in first place. Stack setup is too low for play like that. Too much trouble because of pot to stack ratio. Basically your desition on flop, with that stack to pot ratio, should be shove or fold. Call will make you too much trubles on turn. With higher stack I will also call on flop, because of BDFD and small bet from oponent.

And yea as I already mention in some of your previous hands. Don't try to play like those fenomenals, because you don't know hole story behind there play. With big enough volume you will get similar feeling. But not before you play over 100k hands in a decent amount of time.

GL at tables!

Wow, 1 month playing and already you seem to have a good future! I have recently started with tournaments again, small stakes. What I do when I have a feeling is to go with it. It's cheap and later I can analyze if it was right. Someone once said (a very good player) that the best way to improve is to experiment and see what works and what's not.
Nice hand:f_drink: and GL

Originally posted by ZeroDegrees
Wow, 1 month playing and already you seem to have a good future! I have recently started with tournaments again, small stakes. What I do when I have a feeling is to go with it. It's cheap and later I can analyze if it was right. Someone once said (a very good player) that the best way to improve is to experiment and see what works and what's not.
Nice hand:f_drink: and GL

Thank you for your kind words. I am trying hard to improve at this game but there really is so much to learn. I had my best result (not money wise) yesterday when I managed to finish 20/5742. During the last 100 I went card dead and eventually busted with 66 (it looked a million dollars after my bad run) against AA. I tightened up a lot like I'd been advised to on here and it went well. I shall keep plugging on and hopefully improve.

Thanks again and good luck to you!